Amoral music - such a thing?

[deleted account 6]

Amoral simply refers to something that is neither moral nor immoral; Thus can someone say music is amoral.
The scripture says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."
If God's eyes are in every place and all He sees is evil and good then where is there room for amoral things? To say such a thing is to deny God's omniscience, to deny that God knows everthing (He does even if our limited minds are no capable in comprehending to this latitude).

So it brings me to the question is it possible to have amoral music? In the above context no! So then how can we yoke together worldly music with Christian words or vice versa? Something is not adding up.
I'm confused :panic: :panic: :panic:

[toteu]

so am i ...... lol

[ConSumED]

if your talking about the tune of the song not the lyrics.......i would say music is just the generic foundation for your lyrics..

but if youre saying christian rock, rap, hip-hop, techno, country is amoral you are wrong....because by your statement you said music cant be amoral which is true very true. BUT WHY DOES THE TUNE OF THE SONG HAVE TO SOUND TO OTHER ELDERS LIKINGS and not our own? the lyrics in a song make it moral or imoral

pots and pans were invented by the worldy yet we still use them for our cooking....are pots and pans considered amoral...........NOOOOOOO thats obsourd....how else would you make food

in the christian world there is no Amorality only truth......in your case you think the music itself with out the words is the problem when in reality that has nothing to do with it.....who set the music standard anyways???? who said i cant play christian rock or freestyle what God did for me? the romanian church? the southern baptist community? the 1700's hymnols?

lets get eith the program times have changed.....David sang and played music according to his time and setting......id bet if he were in our day he would be the leader in how many Dove Awards you have.

[yacko]

There is amorality in the world. Nature, for example. One cannot call the ocean good or evil. Music, by the same token ,can be amoral.

I disagree with the interpretation of the verse, "... The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good..." God sees everything that is evil, good, and irrelevant. He just does not pay attention to the irrelevant. We do. We would rather judge someone by the way he or she looks. God looks at the heart. By the same token, we deem music to be good or evil, by the way it sounds. If everything in this world is good or evil, then should there be evil inanimate objects, also? (ok, cell phones notwithstanting). In the world of ideas, where music seems to belong to, there is a continuum of notions that fill that whole space. There is goodness that we cannot even imagine. There is also evil that our minds cannot even conceive. Perhaps we need to recallibrate our moral compass, for it seems that when it comes to moral judgments, most people are flying blind over the Bermuda Triangle.

[ella_tepes]

There is amorality in the world. Nature, for example. One cannot call the ocean good or evil. Music, by the same token ,can be amoral.

I disagree with the interpretation of the verse, "... The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good..." God sees everything that is evil, good, and irrelevant. He just does not pay attention to the irrelevant. We do. We would rather judge someone by the way he or she looks. God looks at the heart. By the same token, we deem music to be good or evil, by the way it sounds. If everything in this world is good or evil, then should there be evil inanimate objects, also? (ok, cell phones notwithstanting). In the world of ideas, where music seems to belong to, there is a continuum of notions that fill that whole space. There is goodness that we cannot even imagine. There is also evil that our minds cannot even conceive. Perhaps we need to recallibrate our moral compass, for it seems that when it comes to moral judgments, most people are flying blind over the Bermuda Triangle.
i disagree with you. :) nature, the example you gave is good. :D God said so Himself! there is NOTHING amoral in this world. the Bible repeatedly states that there is no middle ground in this universe... there are two powers and EVERYTHING in this world is related in one way or another to one of them...

[moe2006]

i disagree with you. :) nature, the example you gave is good. :D God said so Himself! there is NOTHING amoral in this world. the Bible repeatedly states that there is no middle ground in this universe... there are two powers and EVERYTHING in this world is related in one way or another to one of them...
I agree.... :fro:

[yacko]

i disagree with you. :) nature, the example you gave is good. :D God said so Himself! there is NOTHING amoral in this world. the Bible repeatedly states that there is no middle ground in this universe... there are two powers and EVERYTHING in this world is related in one way or another to one of them...

Perhaps you would like to back up your statements. If you agree with the fact that the ocean, let's say, cannot be in itself good or evil, then you are contradicting yourself by saying that there is nothing amoral in this world. I thought that I just gave an example, and you agreed that it was valid :wall2:

[deleted account 6]

There is amorality in the world. Nature, for example. One cannot call the ocean good or evil. .

Genesis 1: (9) And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. (10) God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

Can you clearly see that even the seas/oceans in God's eyes are either good or bad?

Then comes my question again where is there amorality in the world and thus how can music therefore be amoral?

[yacko]

Genesis 1: (9) And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. (10) God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

Can you clearly see that even the seas/oceans in God's eyes are either good or bad?

Then comes my question again where is there amorality in the world and thus how can music therefore be amoral?

God was simply saying, "the seas are good," in the same way we would say "a scoop of ice cream is good." I am not saying that the ice cream is righteous, but good tasting. In the same way, I belive that God looked at the world He created and said, it was useful, beautiful, and it pleased the senses. I do not believe that he meant that the world was righteous. The pristine world, like a baby, was innocent. It was good, but at the same time amoral. A baby is innocent and amoral at the same time. I hope you understand the distinction.

Now, I shall address the issue of good and evil as it pertains to morality. Nature by itself cannot teach morality. Therefore, while good, if judged as a work of art, Nature is amoral. To quote a smarter person than I, " ... Nature does not teach. A true philosophy may sometimes validate an experience of nature; An experience of Nature cannot validate a philosophy ... " The book of Ecclesiastes is full of such examples, where the author draws the wrong conclusions about God based on his observations of nature and people. But that does not mean that nature is either righteous, or evil. By the same token, music by itself cannot be righteous (to use the proper term here), or evil. The message it delivers can be true or false, designed to pull one away from God, draw one closer to God, or simply be indifferent to these metaphysical implications. And there are many of those examples in music.

One only need to know the origins of Wagner's "Lonhegrin" and Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", to realize that some of our most beloved "Christian" music has its origins in Pagan myth and humanist secularism. The church history records many instances where Chritians adopted wordly music and made it their own (see, William Booth, Martin Luther, to name a few). Yes, tha meant taking old drinking songs and putting Christian lyrics to them. I suspect that many of the old Romanian Christian songs came into being the same way. To reiterate my point, I believe that music is just a tool: it can be used for righteous or evil purposes, but that does not make it such. A knife can be used to cut vegetables or a human being. However, it does not make the tool itself righteous or evil.

[dukey]

Maybe the question you ask is pointless?

I mean, what is music in the first place?(let's make this simple, and stick to melodies without words). I would say that music is an expression of something that cannot be physically seen or felt. It is art. When a human soul wants to express joy, grief, beauty, faith, freedom or a number of other immanterial things, it does so through art. It paints, dances, sculptes, acts, composes, or plays an instrument. These are ways of expressing the inexpresible. It is a gift from God.

Now is joy or grief or beauty moral or immoral? Intrinsically, i do not believe that they are either good or bad in and of themselves. They are only expressions. But the soul my friend, that is what is moral or immoral. You are confusing a cup with the liquid inside. Music is only a container that transmits a message. The message is moral or immoral. The music itself only a means. (yacko...i like your tool example)

btw...the verse you used is pretty innapropriate...i mean it had nothing to do with music...you only applied it to that.

[moe2006]

Maybe the question you ask is pointless?

I mean, what is music in the first place?(let's make this simple, and stick to melodies without words). I would say that music is an expression of something that cannot be physically seen or felt. It is art. When a human soul wants to express joy, grief, beauty, faith, freedom or a number of other immanterial things, it does so through art. It paints, dances, sculptes, acts, composes, or plays an instrument. These are ways of expressing the inexpresible. It is a gift from God.

Now is joy or grief or beauty moral or immoral? Intrinsically, i do not believe that they are either good or bad in and of themselves. They are only expressions. But the soul my friend, that is what is moral or immoral. You are confusing a cup with the liquid inside. Music is only a container that transmits a message. The message is moral or immoral. The music itself only a means. (yacko...i like your tool example)

btw...the verse you used is pretty innapropriate...i mean it had nothing to do with music...you only applied it to that.
Alas, the peacemaker..... :p:

dude I would give u rep... u post great posts, but I gotta spread some rep out before giving u some again :wall2:

[deleted account 6]

Maybe the question you ask is pointless?

I mean, what is music in the first place?(let's make this simple, and stick to melodies without words). I would say that music is an expression of something that cannot be physically seen or felt. It is art. When a human soul wants to express joy, grief, beauty, faith, freedom or a number of other immanterial things, it does so through art. It paints, dances, sculptes, acts, composes, or plays an instrument. These are ways of expressing the inexpresible. It is a gift from God.

Now is joy or grief or beauty moral or immoral? Intrinsically, i do not believe that they are either good or bad in and of themselves. They are only expressions. But the soul my friend, that is what is moral or immoral. You are confusing a cup with the liquid inside. Music is only a container that transmits a message. The message is moral or immoral. The music itself only a means. (yacko...i like your tool example)

btw...the verse you used is pretty innapropriate...i mean it had nothing to do with music...you only applied it to that.

The reason I want to know whether music can be amoral is because Voodoo worship in which the worshippers dances to the beating of the holy drum literally become possesed by spirits as they call these spirits through their music. Anyone can do this if they participate.
If music is amoral then we could play this style of music in church and would not be calling any evil spirits. We could even add Christian lyrics to the music (especially as the music can be some people's taste)
But if this music was evil then the evil spirits would recognise that they are being called. This would mean what? Hope you see where I am coming from and that I am not simply asking for the sake of asking. Your answer could influence the types of music I will choose to listen to and thus I might be calling evil spirits through songs with Christian lyrics.
This beat that the Voodoo worshippers worship is even in contemporary music genres

[dukey]

Alas, we have reached a conflict. Based on what I have said so far, if that beat were played in church to Christian lyrics, then it is not evil. I stand by my claim.

Hard to swallow? maybe. let's think about it for a sec. What is calling those spirits in that ritual practice? Is it the music? Or is it rather the attitude and desires of the people playing the music that is inviting the demonic? The music is only used as a tool to amplify the desires within the people playing it. They are seeking demonic presence, and they will find it with or without music.

[sonnomoltobello]

Well Paul and silas sang and a mircale happened and there chains were loosed and the prison gates opened and the jail keeper turned to God, and David sang and evil ran from saul better said the demon left. What can we learn its not the words, or the instruments or what style we like is the music setting the captive free, building Gods Kingdom, and filling hearts with the holy spirit that's Gods music. That's why Jesus said when you pray he said to say My father who are in heaven hallowed be your name, YOUR KINGDOM COME. on earth there's only two kingdom material doesn't have anything to do with it. Paul said we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against evil spirits, dark forces. What can we learn from all this you can take evile lirics out of a song and put so called good lirics in a song and the song still can be evil. The music the comes from revalation from on high is the Godly music it doesn't matter what instrument used or what nationality singing it, but if its from the kingdom on high and makes demons flee. If there's anymore contraversory i know its from the other kingdom I rebuke it in Jesus name Amin. Praise the lord and let evil flee.

[ella_tepes]

Alas, we have reached a conflict. Based on what I have said so far, if that beat were played in church to Christian lyrics, then it is not evil. I stand by my claim.

Hard to swallow? maybe. let's think about it for a sec. What is calling those spirits in that ritual practice? Is it the music? Or is it rather the attitude and desires of the people playing the music that is inviting the demonic? The music is only used as a tool to amplify the desires within the people playing it. They are seeking demonic presence, and they will find it with or without music.
very good point in this comment and your previous... i can understand completely what you are expressing... at first i definied the word "amoral" as "neither good nor bad", hence the argument i made... but when the word amoral is taken for what it really means... indeed you are just in your reasoning.

[railer]

Amoral simply refers to something that is neither moral nor immoral; Thus can someone say music is amoral.
The scripture says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."
If God's eyes are in every place and all He sees is evil and good then where is there room for amoral things? To say such a thing is to deny God's omniscience, to deny that God knows everthing (He does even if our limited minds are no capable in comprehending to this latitude).

So it brings me to the question is it possible to have amoral music? In the above context no! So then how can we yoke together worldly music with Christian words or vice versa? Something is not adding up.
I'm confused :panic: :panic: :panic:

Come on mate, you're a muso for crying out loud! If you're saying, and I hope I've just misunderstood your point, that our current worship muisc is not Christian...you're so wrong.

[deleted account 6]

Evaluating the evil in music is not a matter of musical ability, but rather of spiritual discernment.

1 John 4: 1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How can Christians justify such music when the verse below clearly states from ALL that appears evil.

1 Thessalonians 5: 21-22
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from ALL appearance of evil

The Bible teaches us that newly converts are not in the position to teach the truths of the Gospel. Check the context I'm only supplying the key verse.

1 Timothy 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

Therefore I would be more inclined to believe a person who is not a new convert and in whom I can clearly see fruit in their life regularly, rather than a new convert that has abundant fruit this year and the next he might have nothing.

Sometimes we reason that by putting Christian words to the same beat/music of the world it is made right. But is this reasoning in accordance with the Scripture?

2 Corinthians 6: 14-15
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

Consider this scenario

Haggai 2: 12-13
If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?' "
The priests answered, "No."
Then Haggai said, "If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?"
"Yes," the priests replied, "it becomes defiled."

And then how can you make unclean music acceptable by putting Christian words to it? It would be violating the following command:

2 Corinthians 6:17
"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."

If this is a means by which we reach the younger generation, placing Christian words to evil music then is giving out liquor with Bible verses on the bottles justified?

To justify vulgar music in the basis that it is being used to communicate the Gospel is the same as justifying profainty in the pulpit or pornography in the Gospel literature.

Firthermore this music has physical effects on the body

1 Corinthians 3: 16-17
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

This type of music makes the listener to have the tendency to play the music louder and louder. The safe decibel levels range is from 20-65 decibels. As the decibel level of the music increases, irreversible hearing loss occurs. Permanent damage is possible after eight continuous hours of 90 decibel sound. Concerts play between 110 -140 decibels. 1 minute exposure is enough to cause permanent hearing damage.

Another thing this music does, while we listen to the music our minds try to bring the beat and the melody together. Where there is an offbeat the mind struggles to coordinate the two. Studies have shown that playing such music to animals. Prolonged listening to this music showed devastating effect took place. The brain cells involved became deformed as they attempted to reconcile the beat with the melody.

Studies have also shown that noise not only threatens hearing but is linked to high levels of stress, high blood pressure, ulcers and hormonal imbalance.

Not to mention that this type of music can also be very addictive something which I must do more research on.

God bless you guys, I hope it is self explanatory. I don't want to put too much information on if no one is going to read it.

[icosmin]

So, you quit listening to music?

[deleted account 6]

So, you quit listening to music?
Not all music is bad, but words does not make music good.

I notice that as you grow closer to God there are things in your life that do not help you grow and so you start cutting down on these things that hinder your growth in Christ. They might be innocent things that now are an obstacle. If you are serious about getting closer to God and are not satisfied to reach a level that you feel confortable and then stop growing then you will ask God why you're not growing and God will show you. It is a matter of whether you believe and accept or refuse. Either way something will take priority in your life.

Some people reach different obstacles at different times. Those that have found an answer to growing want to help others take a short-cut and start saying don't do this and don't do that. The Spirit of God will teach and convince everyone if they are willing to grow spiritually for God. (Of course if you can see that a person is a trusted Christian and is teaching you a 'short-cut' you make no mistake if you listen to them. You can ask God to explain why this obstacle is really an obstacle, God will gladly answer your request in His time.)

God wants us at a boiling state not warm. When you don't grow you cool off. I believe that music can contribute to this state either by helping you grow or hindering your growth.

many Blessings to you all

[ConSumED]

what you are making is a bad assumtion because half those verses we taken out of context

[railer]

So what's your point Dorin? I didn't actually get one from all that.

[deleted account 6]

So what's your point Dorin? I didn't actually get one from all that.
I guess I have over read and summarizing everything wasn't such a good idea because you didn't see where I am coming from. It makes sense to me because I have all the background readings but you guys don't. This subject proves too difficult to deal with on a thread. It needs to be broken down to smaller topics or abandoned for now.

Thank you guys for your patiences and God bless you

[deleted account 6]

...read this article


http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/music.htm
Thank you sister. Thank you very much.

I believe that these guys must be genuine and they sound like they know what they are talking about.

Now its just a matter of working out which songs in my collection are good and which are not. It helps explain why there is such an internal struggle and the source of this struggle. It is so hard getting rid of these CD's and I wonder why its so hard. Part of the reason i believe is because I don't have secular music other than classical music and Christmas songs the rest are from Christian sources and they are not heavy stuff either.
I believe this is a spiritual battle and I need some more assistance, brothers and sisters help me out please if you believe this cause if genuine and a real problem. I want to be bringing good fruit not SOUR plump healthy fruit for God that do not make Him happy.

Thank you also for the site http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/index.html

May God bless you mightily nd abundantly

[railer]

Part of the reason i believe is because I don't have secular music other than classical music and Christmas songs the rest are from Christian sources and they are not heavy stuff either.

Isn't that a bit of a double-standard? Distinguishing between acceptable secular music and unacceptable secular music?

[ConSumED]

i do not believe those articles because there are so much of them out there that bash christian music ive read them all....

[deleted account 6]

Isn't that a bit of a double-standard? Distinguishing between acceptable secular music and unacceptable secular music?
How do you mean?

Non of them have a beat for starters. The christmas carols are praising God, again without a beat. As for classical music it was originally composed by Christians again to praise God. I guess there are lots of other Christian music that are being produced by non-Christians for a profit. Is that right to listen to their music?

[ConSumED]

well how is it that they make their money?? playing music is their full time job......is it wrong to listen to paid pastor??

gimme a break dude

[ella_tepes]

hmmm... when i was home a few years ago... i remember becoming extremely angry with several of my family members...i was so angry i could've ripped everything apart in my pathway... and in order to vent the energy that had built up within me on account of this anger i went into my room and for about 20 min... listened (loudly) to music that some call "evil".. you know rap,.. rock... and the like... it calmed me amazingly! i was able to go out after that and feel all at peace with everyone... now i'm sure that research is correct when they say that loud hard music can disturb the rhythm and peace of a body (that i've also experienced in various circumstances) but i also know that with the right message (and that is given thru the words) it can have a very peaceful effect as well.

[jo neetz15]

How do you mean?

Non of them have a beat for starters. The christmas carols are praising God, again without a beat. As for classical music it was originally composed by Christians again to praise God. I guess there are lots of other Christian music that are being produced by non-Christians for a profit. Is that right to listen to their music?


ok..what do you mean by beat? do you mean that composers such as handel and mozart composed pieces without percussion therefore making their music more holy than those that had drums?:nono: :nono:

for me, music with a "beat" actually does help me feel closer to god. it makes me want to clap and sing more for jesus, and it really gets me into the spirit. true, xmas carols are prasing god and i do enjoy them, it would be kindof hard to see me, or anyone for that matter, claping and dancing for the lord from those songs. some people do tho, and i respect that, so plz dont be offended. :need:

anyways, i got off topic, my point was, you cant say that because christian music has a beat its not praising god. i hope i didnt misinterpret what you said though. :need:

god bless you

[ella_tepes]

How do you mean?

Non of them have a beat for starters. The christmas carols are praising God, again without a beat. As for classical music it was originally composed by Christians again to praise God. I guess there are lots of other Christian music that are being produced by non-Christians for a profit. Is that right to listen to their music?

without a beat???
place your hand upon your heart? do you not feel a steady beat? walk around for a few seconds... is your pace regular or not? if "beats" were so wrong why did God create us with several of our own? classical music composed by christians? uhh.. i'm assuming you like mozart.. take a look at his life.. anything BUT christian... and when it comes down to it ALL music has a BEAT! in some its more distinguished than in others, in some there are more levels, but ALL music has some sort of beat to it.

[Agapeme10]

I understand your point Dorin and I'm so thankful for christians who are not willing to compromise in order to be more popular with the public!!!
One quick way to destroy a society is through its music. Music affects us in body, soul and spirit
It's really like a powerful drug who's effects we don't always recognize. Music can poison you, lift your spirits, or make you sick without knowing why. Its the perfect expression of the soul. Biblically, when we talk about the soul, we are speaking of the human personality and its three component parts - the mind, the will and the emotions. This is where we begin to see music's real power take hold.
Man is a spiritual being. Though, as we know, we live in a body and have a soul, we are first and foremost spiritual beings. Genesis 1:27 talks about the origins of man, "So God created man in His own likeness." In other words, Spirit begat spirit. From the breath of God that gave us life - to His image indelibly impressed upon our hearts, you and I are spirits. And as spirits, we are profoundly affected by the principles and the personalities that make up the spiritual world, whether we are aware of them or not.
The kingdom of darkness is real and is the spiritual source of all opposition to God. The lord of this diabolical kingdom is the "prince of the air," more commonly known as Satan, or the devil. With a hoard of wicked spirits at his command, he is called the "god of this fallen world" (2 Cor. 4:4).
As this world's ruler, his task is essentially two-fold. First, to stimulate the variety of lusts that lives within the human heart, thereby degrading people as well as bringing them into greater bondage and control - "For by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved" (2 Peter 2:19). Second, to oppose all of God's efforts to redeem man. The battlefield here is primarily the human mind. Using a variety of techniques, Satan's strategy is to fill us with lies, to convince us that black is white and evil good, to justify sin and blind us to our need for a savior, and to distort our image of God (2 Cor. 4:4).

Given its power over the heart of man, music is among the most powerful of these techniques. And it's worth noting that both the scriptures and church tradition suggest that music comes quite naturally to Satan, that very possibly, before his fall, he was in charge of music in heaven (Ezekial 28:13-17). And who else to manuver music but him (and do keep in mind they he will not make it seem black and ugly, but angel like because he has the capabily to make himself seem like the angels of light) This is the truth and we have to face it...its not part of being closed minded - its actually being open minded towards God's word and will for our lives!!!

[sandgroper]

Amoral simply refers to something that is neither moral nor immoral; Thus can someone say music is amoral.
The scripture says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."
If God's eyes are in every place and all He sees is evil and good then where is there room for amoral things? To say such a thing is to deny God's omniscience, to deny that God knows everthing (He does even if our limited minds are no capable in comprehending to this latitude).

So it brings me to the question is it possible to have amoral music? In the above context no! So then how can we yoke together worldly music with Christian words or vice versa? Something is not adding up.
I'm confused
I love how this fella asks questions even though he already knows the answer.

[Agapeme10]

yea, he didn't post this to prove he knew the answer...and good thing he knew it, cause we should be VERY familiar with the subjescts we post...he simpley just wanted our opinion and view on za subject.
sorry, i just had to commant...lol

[railer]

How do you mean?

Non of them have a beat for starters. The christmas carols are praising God, again without a beat. As for classical music it was originally composed by Christians again to praise God. I guess there are lots of other Christian music that are being produced by non-Christians for a profit. Is that right to listen to their music?

So you're saying that if a composition has a beat then it is evil?!?! Oh. my. God.

What the hell do you mean without a beat?! Last time I checked, O Come All Ye Faithful had a common time signature. **** those time signatures, with them being tools of Satan and all :wall:

And as for classical music, you obviously don't know that not all music from that era was religious, in fact a large majority was secular. I would honestly suggest to you that you research the past 400 years of music more and see that one cannot automatically label all "classical" music as a praise to God. Therein lies your double standard.

[deleted account 6]

So you're saying that if a composition has a beat then it is evil?!?! Oh. my. God.

What the hell do you mean without a beat?! Last time I checked, O Come All Ye Faithful had a common time signature. **** those time signatures, with them being tools of Satan and all :wall:

And as for classical music, you obviously don't know that not all music from that era was religious, in fact a large majority was secular. I would honestly suggest to you that you research the past 400 years of music more and see that one cannot automatically label all "classical" music as a praise to God. Therein lies your double standard.
There are many different beats. As pointed out the heart also has a beat. A good beat that does not disrupt the normal beating of the heart is music played in the time signature 4/4 for example. The beat that I am referring to - according to what I have researched - disrupts the normal heart beat pattern under the normal exercise intensity (rest or otherwise). Not all music has a bad beat or upsets the balance of true worship music, where melody takes priority, then harmony then the rhythm.

The out of balanced music releases adrenaline in the blood stream and helps to create a 'sensation' – hear me now, believe me later. Adrenaline was intended by God for a "fight or flight situation" but in your music you are not fighting nor fleeing. This means you are getting an overdose of adrenaline creating an imbalance in your hormones. This is not healthy because you are not consuming the extra energy thus the adrenaline is consumed otherwise or rather is consuming you and your internal organs as the hormonal balance needs to be restored.

It creates a sense of control as you experience this induced 'high' which cannot be confused with or compared to the moment that God touches you. No God’s ‘power touching’ experience is not of the body; it’s when your spirit connects with God’s Spirit. Does it not say that true worshippers will worship God the Father in spirit and in truth? Or was it body/adrenaline rush and truth?

I also love it how the person above mentioned that this music calmed them down. I question whether one reason the situation got out of hand was because you were feeling the need for another dose of such music and once you got it you felt okay. This music drowns out thought, how was God involved in this situation if your conscience is drowned out by the music. The words could have been screaming at you but it was the adrenaline inducing beat that ultimately got you round and calm. True?
Are you motivated to do things without music (such as house chores, school work) or are you finding that only music can motivate you to do things? This is already extreme and needs to be dealt with fast and appropriately.

I have to say I don't know by what spirit you are guided to have the guts to disguise curse words (*). The Bible says what you have in your heart comes out of your mouth. How will I (a weaker brother) receive your teaching if you can tolerate such words in your vocabulary? Does it not make me wonder what else do you tolerate in your life? God have mercy!

As for classical music that was intended for God's glory and that which was not, am I not able to distinguish and select the classical music that does honour God? It is claimed that John Wesley borrowed secular music and added Christian lyrics. Actually it was the secular society that stole the music from the Church that Wesley reintroduced back into the Church decades later. If we want to get historical lets get our historical facts right. Martin Luther also used secular music but the music of his time was very melodious and obeyed the order of balanced music, which does not disrupt the normal heat beat.

God gave me this wonderful scenario from the Bible as an example: the two eldest sons of Aaron were struck down by God. Why? Did they not have clean intentions, did they not have the right attitude, (but they were so passionate and eager to serve God), were they not clean, were they not in the position of bringing the offering, what was wrong? Everything was in order except that they brought before the Lord a foreign fire. God made a distinction between good fire and bad fire. One was obviously good and the other was not because it cost them their life. I cannot see anything amoral in this scenario. What’s the difference between the two fires? Sure it’s a tool but God did not accept it.

Some claimed that music is like a tool you can use it for good purposes or you can use it for bad purposes, here we have fire; a tool used with the right attitude and for the right purpose and it cost two high priests their life? A tool hey? Just a tool?

Heavenly Father I know you can see our eagerness to serve you better, but as someone put it “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” We want to serve you right the way and pleases you. Teach us your will through your Spirit. I rebuke satan to be powerless in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ in our quest to draw nearer to you even in this area of music.
There is one Way, one Truth, and one Life and that is Christ, separate from this vine we cannot bear fruits. Cast us not away as we humbly seek your face and your face Lord we seek. Amen

[railer]

The word was actually d.amn, but the censors obviously think it's too vulgar. I have no problem disguising my language, I will say what I believe without holding back.

As for your other arguments, well...I couldn't care less in all honesty. I've studied the history of music of the past 500 years enough to know what's what, and to me, your opinion on classical "secular" music is a double-standard.

Hey, if you can't take a 5/4 or a 7/8 time signature, that just shows your unwillingness as a musician to accept a different facet of our wonderful medium. To base your entire argument on the physiological reaction that humans experience when listening to music is foolish, especially considering that the purpose of music is to primarily touch a person's emotions. It's like saying "don't swim because your body will become fatigued and you'll require more air to sustain your body's function" - not swiming would nulify the purpose of the exercise. Thusly, let's not listen to music that doesn't have an equal rhythm because it will "upset" our hearts (which is a load of crap anyway). Even moreso, let's not listen to Christian Rock because the hard beats and low bass will cause reverberations in our chests which is so wrong...*headdesk*

[61leumas]

you mean like the group Coldpaly..clean music with words of hope for ppl in trouble and no foul language or sexuality or etc... but they dont refer to God either..something along the line right..is that what you mean by amoral?....

[dukey]

wow...this really is some low quality crap i have been reading....and other thing we are approaching this from a very Western bias.

Look at cultures that don't implement our Western music system and what kind of music they use to worship God. I was the only white guy in gospel choir in high school and we sang black gospel songs that may have "distruped the beating of the heart" but it was awesome.

Get out of your bubble. Go to some churches where not everyone is white and Romanian (or Australian). Look at different cultures. Don't limit yourself to a provincial outlook.

Don't limit God to what makes you feel comfortable. God can use anything he wants to express his glory.

[Agapeme10]

Dukey, 1st of all, its very low quality on your part to consider someone's opinion "low quality crap".
I see your point, however you are a bit out of context. Please go back and read what this guy asked originaly and try to understand what he had in mind, and then, state your opinion accordingly!!! He asked "is it possible to have amoral music? In the above context no! So then how can we yoke together worldly music with Christian words or vice versa?" Now please ansewer that exactly and let us all know what you think.
p.s. people in bubbles are not interested in the opinion of others, thus eliminating the statement you made.

[dukey]

I already answered that orginial question earlier in the post and am starting to find this redundant.

I think it is imperative to consider other people's opinion crap or not. We should respect people but not necessarily ideas. Ideas and opinions should always be judged and thought through or you will find that you are an ignorant person.

I brought up cultural diversion as a way of broadening the discussion. My point was in context because the discussion started vearing more toward defining the morality of music in terms of musical theory (time signatures, rhythm, etc) which is totally absurd. Music of other cultures is considered immoral if Dorin's moral definiton is applied. It was an indirect way of saying that music is in and of itself (no words) amoral. Read what i wrote earlier.

Read and think before you speak or in this case, write.

[dukey]

I already answered that orginial question earlier in the post and am starting to find this redundant.

I think it is imperative to consider other people's opinion crap or not. We should respect people but not necessarily ideas. Ideas and opinions should always be judged and thought through or you will find that you are an ignorant person.

I brought up cultural diversion as a way of broadening the discussion. My point was in context because the discussion started vearing more toward defining the morality of music in terms of musical theory (time signatures, rhythm, etc) which is totally absurd. Music of other cultures is considered immoral if Dorin's moral definiton is applied. It was an indirect way of saying that music is in and of itself (no words) amoral. Read what i wrote earlier.

Read and think before you speak or in this case, write.

[Agapeme10]

thank you dukey, i'm sorry, honestly i did not even read what you wrote above and I do apologize...i tend to do that often...just read at the end. And to be completly honest, i felt that you didn't say it out of a loving spirit (the crap opinion stuff), I guess it just hit me the wrong way. Its something that bothers me, you know, when people reply to a post and they are kind of negative about it. Sometimes we act a certain way and we just don't know how it can affect the person reading.

[dukey]

i guess i didn't say it out of a loving spirit...it was more a spirit of rebuke...I enjoy being aggresive at times in what I say...(could be the testosterone)...

Personally, I really don't appreciate how some are approaching this issue. The Bible is being used to support what anyone wants to say. We have our opinions, then we seek Biblical evidence (even manipulating it) to support them. We should be forming opinions on the Bible.

[ConSumED]

People are always asking if drums or keyboards or, yes, if electric guitars belong in the church. All musical instruments are, in themselves, neither good nor bad--they are amoral. So the question is this: Does a style of music edify believers while bringing honor and glory to Christ Jesus? If so, then what difference does it make if the accompaniment is provided by a piano or a guitar? Perhaps Ephesians 5:19 is the answer to this issue in that it promotes worshipping the Lord and encouraging other believers in three different "styles" of music, "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord."

--this is from a christian website i picked out from

[deleted account 6]

Thanks guys

Actually I don't stand anywhere on this topic and I am not convinced either way.

My researching on this topic has not being reproduced (in the sense that I did not redo the experiments etc.) and so I cannot prove anything anyone says is correct. I can only choose to believe or not believe them.

I'm still confused but I know that God will work me out of this problem. I have passed it onto Him and it is now His problem not mine.

God bless you guys

[Agapeme10]

I like your answer, COnDumED...good perspective.

[deleted account 6]

God has given me a response with which I am content and it fully explains everything to me. I am now clear on this issue and I praise God for His Light that shines on me by His grace and for His Name's sake.

[adelinne]

God has given me a response with which I am content and it fully explains everything to me. I am now clear on this issue and I praise God for His Light that shines on me by His grace and for His Name's sake.

amen to that :amen: what about posting it? :) maybe it will help some of us also :help: :scratch:

[malachieisus]

i think its ok

like sometimes i take beautiful trance songs that say nothing about God,but i think about God when i listen to the beat
and i feel like im in heaven and that nothing else matters

that kind of feeling can not be from the evil one,so if its not from the evil one than its from our father

and if anything comes form God it is for the best.

God bless

[deleted account 6]

[Quote]Amen to that.
What about posting it?
Maybe it will help some of us also.[Quote]

I hope you can be content with this:

Romans 14:
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats (listens to), because his eating (listening) is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The answer is of such that I cannot post it because not everyone is able to receive it. This should not be a problem because the Spirit's job is to convince not mine. So let no one jump to conclusions, just let the Spirit of God speak to you and have ears to listen.

I pray that God will give you (Adelinne) discernment to understand why I won't post it publicly. Also just as God answered me He can/will answer you too. God is an awesome God!

[Sometimes God asks me if I want to know the truth and sometimes it makes no sense what He answers me because I don't always know how to think like God, who's thought are deeper and higher than mine. I just believe Him and when I mature I realise that God's way of thinking is so normal and perfect that I can no longer think any other way, because it no longer makes sense to think the old way looking in the bigger scheme of things. (Just a little about my experience with God)]


:music: :music: :music:

[adelinne]

[Quote]Amen to that.
What about posting it?
Maybe it will help some of us also.[Quote]

I hope you can be content with this:

Romans 14:
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats (listens to), because his eating (listening) is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The answer is of such that I cannot post it because not everyone is able to receive it. This should not be a problem because the Spirit's job is to convince not mine. So let no one jump to conclusions, just let the Spirit of God speak to you and have ears to listen.

I pray that God will give you (Adelinne) discernment to understand why I won't post it publicly. Also just as God answered me He can/will answer you too. God is an awesome God!

[Sometimes God asks me if I want to know the truth and sometimes it makes no sense what He answers me because I don't always know how to think like God, who's thought are deeper and higher than mine. I just believe Him and when I mature I realise that God's way of thinking is so normal and perfect that I can no longer think any other way, because it no longer makes sense to think the old way looking in the bigger scheme of things. (Just a little about my experience with God)]


:music: :music: :music:

I understand that, Dorin :)
One of the most exciting things about the realtionship with God is that it is PERSONAl, and there are things ( incredintari) wich are just between you and God; they may be good for you but not necessarily for the person next to you , because we are different so is our relation with God .Most of the things where we are not sure if they are sin or not, ( cuz the Bible is not clear enough regarding that matter ) we base on our relationship with God and receive an answer, but that might be true just for me, personally :)
What I wanted to say is that i totally understand this :)
God bless you bro`:amen:

[deleted account 6]

You know I was wondering about the book of Psalms that in many cases encourages all people to praise God, making it irrelevant what their creed, or belief is. The focus falls on praising God because He comes first. For example take

Psalm 66
For the director of music. A song. A psalm.
1 Shout with joy to God, all the earthtoţi locuitorii pămîntului!
2 Sing the glory of his name;
make his praise glorious!

3 Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds!
So great is your power
that your enemies cringe before you.

4 All the earth bows down to you;
they sing praise to you,
they sing praise to your name."
Selah

5 Come and see what God has done,
how awesome his works in man's behalf!

6 He turned the sea into dry land,
they passed through the waters on foot—
come, let us rejoice in him.

7 He rules forever by his power,
his eyes watch the nations—
let not the rebellious rise up against him.
Selah

8 Praise our God, O peoples,
let the sound of his praise be heard;
8Binecuvîntaţi, popoare, pe Dumnezeul nostru! Faceţi să răsune lauda Lui!


So how do we explain this? Personally I have an explanation but I was wondering what others think also.:thanks: :thanks: :thanks: