Who sinned first?

[hilduti]

I'm not asking to be sexist or anything, but I want to know what people think when it comes to who "sinned" first. Back up your opinion.......I thought it was interesting when I found my answer.
It'll get you thinkin' :scratch: :scratch:

[Andy]

well, I think Lucifer sinned first, but I don't think that's what you meant. :D

I believe since Eve ate of the apple first, she sinned first. my Bible as Literature teacher at school though says (and I don't necessarily believe in forming assumptions) that it was actually Adam who sinned first because he was instructed by God to tend to the garden and instead he followed Eve to the forbidden tree. sounds a little iffy for me though.

[hilduti]

Yeah, I mean between Adam and Eve.....so you think it was Eve, but where's your back up?

[Nygel]

God commanded Adam and Eve to not eat or touch the fruit of the tree. So when Eve touched it that's when she sinned by disobeying God's command.

[cosmin]

--
wow! ... novellation is BACK! :clap1:

everyone please give a round of applause to the nr.1 poster on royouth :bsmile:

[hilduti]

novellation,
Back up your response.....God gave the comandment to Adam directly......God never, directly, told Eve not to eat of the fruit....
Why are we all born sinners? Through man.....

[Nygel]

lol...actually Ceci is the top poster now. But thanks anyways. :)

hilduti...and how does that make a difference? The point is that Eve knew what she was doing was wrong which means she knowingly disobeyed God.

[hilduti]

novellation
It only says in the Bible that she was tempted and Adam sinned, but of course both are sinners.....the difference is that God told Adam and Adam told Eve. Like any normal person, you're more likely to "listen" if it comes directly from your superior instead of someone else.
I'm just sayin' that the initial "sin" came from Adam......

[ghita_r]

Novellation....

I have to disagree with you on that one. God never said not to touch the tree. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17 God only said that fromt he day they will eat of the fruit. I know of some theologians who think that satan (who transformed himself into a serpent) pushed Eve against the tree saying "you see God said that if you touch the tree you will die...and look, you touched it already and you didn't die yet so that means God lied to you." (thats just an assumption which could be true but we should just stick to the Word, where the Word is quiet, so should we be too)

And about the whole thing who sinned first? Yes it was the devil, but as for who sinned first out of mankind you could say it was Eve. Just remember that the Bible also mentions that death came through Adam. He was responsible for this because God told him directly not to eat of the tree. If you read the story once again about man's fall, you will see that Adam was next to eve the whole time.

GBu all!!!

[phlojo]

Everyone always thinks that Adam was just hanging out in the Garden while Eve ate the fruit, and then he just happened to drop by and Eve made him eat also. If you read the bible carefull you will see that it makes more sense that they were both present!!!

[phlojo]

the above poster already said that :)
kudos

[Nygel]

Originally posted by hilduti
novellation
It only says in the Bible that she was tempted and Adam sinned, but of course both are sinners.....the difference is that God told Adam and Adam told Eve. Like any normal person, you're more likely to "listen" if it comes directly from your superior instead of someone else.
I'm just sayin' that the initial "sin" came from Adam......

Are you saying that Adam ate before Eve? What is the "initial sin"?

[meesh]

no......they are just sayign that adam was just standing by, letting eve to the talkin to the 'stranger" (men havent changed)

and so he let her be the "guinea pig" so to speak. and when he saw she was ok, he took what she gave him and sinned as well.

the bible says "and she took and gave to her husband WITH HER....."

satan sinned first.....and eve sinned next.........but the fall came thru adam.....cause he could have stopped the whole thing, but he didnt.

and you know what? maybe things could've been different if right away they returned to God callin him and repenting of their sin. but instead, they ran and made fig-leaf underwear and wasted time trying to cover up their sin. (sounds familiar?????) i bet that if they would have turned to God immediately after they sinned, maybe things would be different. , but nooooo they waited till God game and curses were pronounced (and just to think that giving birth could've been easier.....)


lolol

[Nygel]

Originally posted by ghita_r
Novellation....

I have to disagree with you on that one. God never said not to touch the tree. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17 God only said that fromt he day they will eat of the fruit. I know of some theologians who think that satan (who transformed himself into a serpent) pushed Eve against the tree saying "you see God said that if you touch the tree you will die...and look, you touched it already and you didn't die yet so that means God lied to you." (thats just an assumption which could be true but we should just stick to the Word, where the Word is quiet, so should we be too)


Genesis 3:2 _And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 _But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
:scratch: well this verse sounds a little different than the one you quoted. :D

[meesh]

yeah.....but this was only eve's version of what God said, that is not EXACTLY what God said. that is how we get ourselves into trouble sometimes, we push was God has really said and make it more strict than necessary, then when we go against the rule we just set up and see nothing happeneing to us, then we think God was wrong or something. but God never said anything about not touching.

for all we know, she could've been rollin in them (the fruits) and have no problem as long as she didnt eat of it.

[ionut p]

...It's not inportant who sinned first! Important is what are we doing nowadays to...
...The devil was in the garden Eden. Is the devil into our churches? - I think so!!
.....SO THAT's really IMPORTANT!

THINK about it!

[hilduti]

novellation
All I wanted to really say about the whole "initial" sin thing was that Adam directly disobeyed God's commandment and Eve was tempted and didn't listen to her "husband." This kinda thing still happens in marriages today, but there is more pressure on guys to be the "role model" and lead their wives in the right direction.
God bless us all and give us wisdom and understanding in all situations.

[61leumas]

the idea that Eve might have been a guinea pig is possible...because God said not to eat or even TOUCH the tree...but the devil didn't speak to Adam...he spoke to Eve because he knew that she could be more easily manipulated...and after Eve tasted the fruit, and then it says, "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it"(NIV)...in the Bible it says that both there eyes were open and they knew good from evil, but later on God says, "The man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil."(NIV)...God didn't even acknowledge Eve's existence in that sentence and the reason being is that he spoke to Adam..and he was holding Adam responsible for Eve's actions, hence we see that the Bible states that Eve was tempted, and Adam sinned, instead of them both sinning...because Adam was being held responsible...and from there on in the Bible, God will speak to man(mostly) because man will have the authuority....yet many verses in the Bible say man, but what the writer means is man and woman...BUT MOST IMPOTANTLY LET'S NOT FORGET THAT THE NAME ADAM MEAN "STRIKE"....AND EVE MEANS "THE MAN"....SO THAT ALSO CAN CAUSE LOTS OF CONTERVERSY....so the Devil sinned first, then the women(Eve), and then man(Adam), but it was Adam's fault that he didn't keep Eve from sinning!!!!!!!!!!

[meesh]

ummmmm..i think when it says "man" i think God meant man-kind...or humans. cause it wasnt just adams eyes that were opened...but eve's too.....

[KRaKALAkIN]

EVE 'WAS DECEIVED'.
ADAM 'DISOBEYED'.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
WHICH IS THE BIGGER SIN, OR WHOSE IS THE GREATER FAULT?

[meesh]

bigger sin? sin is all the same in God's eyes....isnt it?

[KRaKALAkIN]

:thfro: YOU GOT IT!

[hilduti]

61leumas...
You contradicted yourself in what you said, at least it seemed like it to me....Adam was responsible for Eve and because she was "temted" and fell, he takes the blame for her actions......

Oh and yeah, sin is a sin nomatter how big or small, but there is only one sin that is unforgiveable and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit......

God Bless!:alig: :hippy:

[ghita_r]

Novellation...

I quoted what God said not what Eve said. If what Eve said was true (that they shouldn't even tough it) then wouldn't her eyes have opened once she touched the fruit??? get my point?? Her eyes were opened only after she ate from the fruit! that Bible states that clearly. Sometimes we have to appeal to our imagination when we read the bible just so that we might get a better understanding of things. That is why i stated in my previous post the possiblity that the devil told her once she touched the fruit "see...nothing has happened to you so you can eat of and and surely you won't die" (the bible doesn't say this is what happened but like i said, i'm appealing to the reader's imagination. Just illustrating a possiblity)

GBu all!!

[hilduti]

After thinking :scratch: and discussing with others, I've come to my own conclusion....

* Eve disobeyed Adam
* Adam disobeyed God
* Satan sinned first

All the blame falls on Adam because he's the "head" of the family and he didn't know how to keep his wife "in check." Because of that, he carries the "seed of sin" and that's why Mary was a virgin...Jesus was born pure and fara pacat....but us, we are all born sinners......

Alright well that's what I think.....God bless us all with the wisdom to understand what's important and what we need to know in order to serve Him....:alig:

[crustyorez]

They Both sinned first,... it wasn't that only Eve sinned,.. for she took of the fruit from the tree and bit from it,. but it wasn't that adam wasn't anywhere to be found,. he was there with her next,.. and if he was any better he would have rebuked her, and made her not eat,.. but no, he is as week and simple minded as she was,... cuz once she ate from it,. he gladly bit into it also,... so they both diobeyed God,. u can also say,. that when we get married,. two become one,.. i am not my own but my wife's and vice versa,.... adam didn't take care of himself, well enough to make sure that Eve wouldn't eat from the tree,...

[Nygel]

Hilduti when did God make Adam the 'head' of the family? was it before or after sin entered the world?

[hilduti]

novellation....
When God made Adam in His likeness......

[NeXuS_21]

let's blame the guys... :p

[hilduti]

AngelofFreedom21

Adam didn't know how to keep his "woman" in check.... :D :laf:

[bourne20]

Its plain and simple Eve sinned first , because she listened to the "snake" (Satan), which brought forth the sin of "neascultare", they both sinned but that wasnt what the question was asking "Who sinned first?"

It was Eve...... and thats why most women go through PAIN when they have children...... its in the Bible....

[meesh]

i still believe that satan.......once called lucifer......sinned first. i think you'll find the verses in Ezekiel 28 and like around verse 17. correct me if i am wrong.

anyway.....so here on earth.....satan also sinned first....cause he had the gall to tempt eve. that is why he was also cursed when God pronounced the consequences of sin. he was the first to get "punishment", and that is cause he sinned first. then came eve.....(and no....adam shouldnt have "put her in her place". everybody is free to decide for themselves....those he could have kindly but urgently urged her to stay away from that tree. )
and then finally adam sinned cause he said absolutely nothing, and then instead of fleeing from the tree, he stayed and watched and then ate himself.

so conclusion to this post is....

satan sinned first.

[Theosdoron]

God said that they should not "eat " of "the" tree, therefore i think the part about touching it is false and made up by Eve(in genesis 3:22 it is clear the eating the fruit is the most important thing and that just touching it doesn't do much)...and it makes more sense that Eve's eyes opened the moment she ate...not gradually...
then you ask yourself... i think adam could see the condition eve was in after eating and he chose to eat anyway although he knew it would bring on death both spiritually and physically... he knew and believed God when He said that it would bring death if adam ate of the tree, therefore the version that he saw eve eat and saw that nothing happened is false, it would mean that he didn't have faith in God...even if nothing happened at once, adam knew for certain the consequence for eating
what would have happened if adam didn't eat?
let's not get mixed up with the versions we invent of this event...if the bible doesn't say, we can't always use logic to fill in the blanks...

[KrazyEuro]

thats kwazy!! lucifer sinned first!! lol..2nd...it was even..even though the fall came from man..that dont mean even didnt sin.. God told adam not to eat from the tree..adam and even shouldnt eat it! so adam tells eve...eve eats the fruit..her sin...adams after! you can say that God told adam not eve and so forth.. but ok..lets say this... God told moses those 10 commandments.. should we keep those commandments?? i mean lets just break them and all the sin goes to moses right?? nope! when we break Gods commandments..its our heads! lol...not moses! God told moses to tell his people whats up...God told adam to tell his woman whats up! she failed to listen she sinned..adam failed to stop..he sinned next! or actually..maybe cus adam let her eat the fruit while he was there watching..makes him a sinner first because he saw sin was coming in and he just let it happen... hmmm so adam did sin first cus he saw it happen and he did nothing...so before any fruit was even bitten into..adam sinned for letting even fall into temptation!! cus over the woman is man!! oh and for those who say that we are born sinners...FALSE!!!! we're not born sinners...we are born INTO sin..meaning...we're born..and its our choice to sin or not...if we never flipped threw TV stations we would never know about violence..if we went to christian schools we wouldnt know about foul languages..if we studied the bible we wouldnt know about MTV...if we prayed every day and moment of our lives like daniel did... we wouldnt have time to sin!!....its our choice and we let sin into our lives... its like this...say your mom is pregnant..and she is under water giving birth..and you come out...you have a choice..you can either stay under water holding your breath until you cant breath no more and drown and die pure without any pollution in your lungs.. or.. you can swim to the top and take a nice deep breath of fresh pollution in your lungs so its easier for you to live.... like wise with sin...though we are in the flesh..its impossible to be perfect...cus our flesh is evil! But our Spirits are Pure! God Bless you all ihope i made sense though its 3:30 in the am right now!! lol...dead tired and at work!!! Goodnight boys and girls :)

[crustyorez]

I'm just curious to know why it is that everyone always says that the Devil sinned first. Yes he did go against God, but can you call it a sin, like it is for us. I'm just curious cuz that's what everyone posts and states. lol anyways...

This is an awesome topic about who sinned first concerning our beloved Adam and Eve, and it's really funny when thinking about it, because the very first thing that comes to mind is to say that Eve did it. That she took the fruit from the tree and then bit from it, and then wondered off to go find Adam and make sure he partook from this act as well. lol
What really happened was that Adam was right there standing next to Eve as the serpent was deceiving them into believing that they will be just like their Maker when they’ve eat from this tree. Adam did nothing whatsoever in trying to stop her from taking this fruit, nor did he rebuke her for it, but he gladly ate it when it was handed to him. To go a step further in this argument, what happens when a couple gets married? Two become one; a union is created between two individuals to where there is no more a distinction of separate individuals but of only one entity. You see Eve was created for Adam to complete him, not for her to be under him or subordinate to him. She didn't do the remedial tasks in the garden, but they were both given the responsibility of being Eden's caretakers. Now getting back to whom sinned first, if we are going to place blame on one sole individual without taking into consideration that they were in complete union with one another. That all they were involved in didn't separate them but only acknowledged this God given union more. It is only fair and correct to say that when man fell from God's grace, it wasn't only this one individual that disobeyed God, but that Adam and Eve walked hand in hand in all that they did, from being obedient to becoming disobedient before God.

Let us not point fingers to the Eve's in our lives. For both man and woman were cursed by what Adam and Eve did, and both sexes befell certain curses of toiling the land, to child birth and this so called subordination of woman. One thing is certain, what the first Adam brought upon us, the second Adam freed us from such. We still live in consequence to the sin in our lives and deal with it daily, but this curse of subordination befalling woman is no longer valid if they are believers in our Lord Jesus Christ. It is through him that we have freedom and are conquerors over such in our lives. We as men have to learn to respect our (wives) women as Christ did the church. If anyone thinks his spouse lesser then him, then I pity him or her, for we complete one another in such a union, not detracting from one another. We are here to sustain ourselves in prayer, encouragement, and to be Christ for one another. And yes it does say for wives to be submissive to their husbands, and it should be done out of love and respect, not out of a feeling of demand, inferiority, or just because some male speaks foolishness from the Scriptures thinking he knows and believes that only he is right. For us men, we are to be as Christ was and is for his church, his bride. Sacrificing it all, not thinking ourselves greater but lesser, always providing and supporting, to the point that we love our spouse so much, that it may even mean death (as Christ died for us).

I am not married, I just know this from what my Savior has taught me through his Spirit, and I will never see it any other way. My wife will be for me as Eve was for Adam; she will be my Adam's Eve.

[MaRK!]

eve disobeyed out of ignorance. she was deceived.
adam was conscious of his decision.
which was worse?
they both fell. if one was any better than the other, the better of the two would have been allowed to stay but they were both kicked out.

[SaintJoe69]

It was Eve's fault. She went and made them some patchy clothes out of some fig leaves. They should have just continued walking around naked. It wasn't as though anybody else were around. I mean, weren't they already going steady? :D

[KrazyEuro]

lol...hmmm excellent point...we came into this world naked...lets walk in it naked..and leave in naked!!! yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck imagine..would you really marry the person your going steady if you saw them naked first?? LOL nahhhhhhhhhh lol jk lol

[SaintJoe69]

Adam had it SOOO easy. He didn't have to worry about ANYTHING compared with today.

I'm not even talking about things like other girls to distract him, either. He only had Eve. It's not like he had a choice on whether or not she was ugly, or cute, or "gifted", or anything like that. He didn't have to try to even convince her that he was the best guy for her. :D

When you think about the three basic needs for living, as some of your parents might teach you, there is food, clothing, and shelter.

Clothing only came about because Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, and for some odd reason, decided that nakedness was unacceptable. If they had not thought in this manner, we would be walking around now all naked. We wouldn't have to worry about what is "in" and what is "out" regarding fashion. Imagine that. We would throw out physical attraction from the equation of dating, because there would be no mystery there. (By the way, I personally think that physical beauty is not that important. It's all in the eyes of the beholder, as they say.) Anyhow, those are just some thoughts on clothing. So, in a sense, Adam and Eve are responsible for one of our three main necessities of life.

Shelter. Let's think about that for a minute. Do we REALLY need a place to live? Only if we want something to call our own. A place to come back to after a day at work, or play, or whatever it is that you do. Bums on the street get by living in a box, and that's what they consider their shelter. There are bums without boxes, and they are surviving without any shelter. So, in reality, do we really NEED shelter to be one of our main necessities of life? I know I would be satisfied living on some nice and warm beach somewhere, maybe around Tahiti. Adam and Eve did not live in any kind of shelter that we are aware of. They just lived in the Garden, which I suspect had perfect weather year around. :D

So, we are left with only food to discuss. Yes, it seems that when all the argument and debates are over, that food is the only real necessity to survive. Adam obviously didn't have to worry about this, because he was surrounded by a beautiful garden. He had any kind of fruit or vegetable from which he could choose. Unlike today's equation, where meat is thrown in, and we have to decide yet on another thing to make our lives even more complicated. :D

So, my point as I was saying, Adam had it so easy because he did not have to even deal with the three most basic items we, today as a society, consider necessary for living: food, clothing, and shelter.

Besides, if it weren't for Eve eating that darned apple and then giving Adam a bite, I wouldn't have to worry about any of this anyhow, because who knows if I would be here or not? It is not stated that Adam and Eve began to multiply until after leaving the garden. All the other animals were to multiply and become fruitful, but Adam and Eve did not do that until after they were evicted.
:wall:

[Nygel]

You brought up some good points on how simple Living in Eden was. But on the topic of clothing I see the weather as a indicator that most humans can't live without clothing. Yeah sure there are tropical areas on the globe...but even there without sunscreen you can get a shortened lifespan from being killed by skin cancer. But to think that it is possible to survive without clothing when it's snowing or raining just isn't realistic. As a sidenote I'm glad I don't know anyone who died of hypothermia.

When thinking about shelter I try to picture a soldier in an army. What shelter do they have? Someone has to be taking care of you, whether it is the Government (soldier) or yourself, or homeless shelter (bum). I am led to the opinion that we really do need a place where we belong. :scratch:

[SaintJoe69]

I think that we need clothing now only due to the reasons that we have traveled and spread across the continents. That was God's command, to multiply and be fruitful.

It is nice to have a place to "belong", but I see people who survive without that.

Yes, it is sad to say, that the world we live in today and have grown accustomed to, that the three necessities of life are still food, clothing, and shelter. And yes, I agree, that without one of these, a person's lifespan might not be as long.

I would imagine that the different weather conditions might also be a result of Adam and Eve getting evicted. Why? If they didn't eat the fruit, and they ended up just multiplying, I think God would have kept the weather "perfect" for them no matter where they traveled. That's only a guess, though. I don't see why God would have made it difficult for them if they listened and obeyed Him. And if this is true about the weather, I think shelter would have been unnecessary, too.

So, we have Adam and Eve to blame for everything. As a result, another question comes to mind... If God can create anything, how come He chose to create something that was imperfect, such as man?
:scratch:

[Nygel]

what is imperfect about man? Or better yet how was Adam imperfect?

[SaintJoe69]

I'm sorry, but you have to ask those questions in that thread. We don't want threads crossing over each other, or else we would be blinded by a cloth. :D

[Nygel]

okay, okay, I agree with you that we don't want it all mixed up.

[KrazyEuro]

eve is the one that sinned first!! and its proven biblically!! :bfro:

[Frate777]

Satan sinned first.

[KrazyEuro]

eve! :wall:

[gabi_b]

i think Adam sin first he was responsabl, just when he eat there eys were open for eden garden..........and he realise what a mistake he did when allow not God to make Eve from his legs, head,..... or wh else!

just j.

[jonjon5000]

no......they are just sayign that adam was just standing by, letting eve to the talkin to the 'stranger" (men havent changed)

and so he let her be the "guinea pig" so to speak. and when he saw she was ok, he took what she gave him and sinned as well.

the bible says "and she took and gave to her husband WITH HER....."

satan sinned first.....and eve sinned next.........but the fall came thru adam.....cause he could have stopped the whole thing, but he didnt.

and you know what? maybe things could've been different if right away they returned to God callin him and repenting of their sin. but instead, they ran and made fig-leaf underwear and wasted time trying to cover up their sin. (sounds familiar?????) i bet that if they would have turned to God immediately after they sinned, maybe things would be different. , but nooooo they waited till God game and curses were pronounced (and just to think that giving birth could've been easier.....)


lolol

Things would have not been different. Jesus still would have had to die for them. "The wages of sin is death".

[jonjon5000]

I think that we need clothing now only due to the reasons that we have traveled and spread across the continents. That was God's command, to multiply and be fruitful.

It is nice to have a place to "belong", but I see people who survive without that.

Yes, it is sad to say, that the world we live in today and have grown accustomed to, that the three necessities of life are still food, clothing, and shelter. And yes, I agree, that without one of these, a person's lifespan might not be as long.

I would imagine that the different weather conditions might also be a result of Adam and Eve getting evicted. Why? If they didn't eat the fruit, and they ended up just multiplying, I think God would have kept the weather "perfect" for them no matter where they traveled. That's only a guess, though. I don't see why God would have made it difficult for them if they listened and obeyed Him. And if this is true about the weather, I think shelter would have been unnecessary, too.

So, we have Adam and Eve to blame for everything. As a result, another question comes to mind... If God can create anything, how come He chose to create something that was imperfect, such as man?
:scratch:

God created man perfect. Man chose to be imperfect. Are you trying to say that God made a mistake when he made man?

[SaintJoe69]

i'm curious... where in the Bible does it say that man is perfect? maybe i overlooked a verse... could you provide me with one, please, jonjon?

[jonjon5000]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man was created in the image of God. I would say the image of God is a perfect as it gets. God doesn't mess up and create imperfect beings. He created man and said that he was "good". Lucifer, other angels, humans, all were created perfect. They chose to sin. *Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Adam was created to keep God's commandments and walk in his statutes, therefore it sounds to me like his heart was perfect before God.

[jonjon5000]

i'm curious too... where in the Bible does it say that man was created inperfect? maybe i overlooked a verse... could you provide me with one, please, whoareu?

[SaintJoe69]

God created man perfect. Man chose to be imperfect. Are you trying to say that God made a mistake when he made man?
not being perfect does not imply that you are a mistake. that's a big assumption you made. i would say you are far from perfect, jonjon, but i would not go as low as to say that you were simply a mistake made from your parents. if that's the way you view perfection, then either you are back on your pedestal, thinking that you are perfect... or, you're simply a mistake. you should talk to your parents about making any more "mistakes"... lol...

these are your words on perfection, not mine... lol...

[meesh]

hmmm.in ezekiel 28.....its says that Lucifer was "perfect in all his ways".....yet he is biggest master mind behind sin.

so yes..i believe that man WAS made perfect......but with free will.....

that was the risk God took to obtain true love from His creation. only those who truly love God will go to heaven. we must really search our hearts...i mean really honestly search and see if we really love God.

[jonjon5000]

not being perfect does not imply that you are a mistake. that's a big assumption you made. i would say you are far from perfect, jonjon, but i would not go as low as to say that you were simply a mistake made from your parents. if that's the way you view perfection, then either you are back on your pedestal, thinking that you are perfect... or, you're simply a mistake. you should talk to your parents about making any more "mistakes"... lol...

these are your words on perfection, not mine... lol...

Go back and read what Saintjoe posted before. Usually when you mess up, it's called a mistake, which is what Saintjoe said God did. I'm not the one that said man was made imperfect. I said God didn't make man neither imperfect nor as a mistake. Is that confusing to you? lol lol Those are your words on perfection lol not mine lol. :scratch: :screwy:

Meesh, tell me when you explain to whami the complicated notion that God doesn't create imperfections. :(

[meesh]

HAHA....you guys are dorks.....

remember.....you guys probably see each other weekly....at volleyball......so be nice......

[SaintJoe69]

God made man, and saw that he was good or very good... not perfect. stjoe didn't say that God made a mistake... that was what you interpreted as something not being perfect. all things that are not perfect are not mistakes... with the exception of you, maybe... according to your conception of it what a mistake is. you are imperfect, which means you are simply a mistake... lol... too bad... someone messed up. talk to your parents about that one, silly boy.

[meesh]

what about lucifer? he was made perfect...what about him?

[SaintJoe69]

jonjon claims that he's perfect, which i can loosely interpret (as he does) that he is satan... lol...

[meesh]

lol dork! no.....jonny boy isnt satan....lol.....

lucifer was perfect in beauty and wisdom too........so that rules that out....

haha lol.....jk with ya jonny boy....lololol

[jonjon5000]

Another spam post from wami. Calling me Satan, eh? Go back and read Matthew 7:3-5 again.

[SaintJoe69]

don't cry over spilled milk, jonjon... lol...

[meesh]

ok....back to the original question of the thread....who sinned first......satan did.....back when he was called lucifer...

[jonjon5000]

I'm still waiting for those texts that I asked of you Whoami. Can you clarify to me with the Bible that man was created imperfect?

[SaintJoe69]

I'm still waiting for those texts that I asked of you Whoami. Can you clarify to me with the Bible that man was created imperfect?
use your own verses for that info...
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man was created in the image of God. I would say the image of God is a perfect as it gets. God doesn't mess up and create imperfect beings. He created man and said that he was "good". Lucifer, other angels, humans, all were created perfect.

3 assumptions made by you:

1. being made in or after God's likeness make one perfect. wrong.

you are a man, right? i'm sorry... you are a boy, right? you were created in God's image, too. does that automatically make you perfect? lol... i hope you don't think so. that would yet be another one of your mistakes.

2. if you're not perfect, then you're a mistake. wrong.

you automatically assume that being made in God's likeness or image makes one perfect, but at the same time, you also assume that if one is not perfect, then he/she is a mistake.

3. when God created man and saw that he was "good" (as you posted above), you automatically assume that "good" is equivalent to perfect or perfection. wrong again.

you claim you are good at volleyball... does that make you perfect at volleyball? no way. i've seen you mess up plenty of times.

so, those are my claims against your arguments of perfection... using your own postings and verses you chose.

*if you also notice, it says "let us" which means God (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit... this is the Trinity, in which it seems you have had a hard time grasping it's concept in your past postings. does it directly imply that it is the three? no, it is understood. if you tell me that you don't understand it that way, then you simply are not grasping the concept, and i can see why some of your views are the way they are...

[Frate777]

i have a question why was Jesus merciful to those demons at
MT 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Becuase Jesus was about to cast the demons to the pit. But demons were not created by God or by his image.

[jonjon5000]

My church believes that Pork is unclean like it says in Leviticus 11. So, if you believe that too, you can say that Jesus was destroying the unclean animals so that they couldn't be eaten. Those were being raised for market. Also, Jesus wanted to show how destructive demons are and that they have no mercy for their inhabitants. Two theories.

[SaintJoe69]

pigs/pork and demons... i can see the relationship there... lol...

[meesh]

hey ...demons were once holy angels...only that now they are fallen since they followed satan......1/3 of all the angles fell into sin....

but im sure they were created perfect in the beginning...

and noone seemsed to notice my comment.....satan was made perfect........so what happened to him?

[chalupa]

hey ...demons were once holy angels...only that now they are fallen since they followed satan......1/3 of all the angles fell into sin....

but im sure they were created perfect in the beginning...

and noone seemsed to notice my comment.....satan was made perfect........so what happened to him?


um ................... :confused:

[jonjon5000]

hey ...demons were once holy angels...only that now they are fallen since they followed satan......1/3 of all the angles fell into sin....

but im sure they were created perfect in the beginning...

and noone seemsed to notice my comment.....satan was made perfect........so what happened to him?

I noticed it. He chose to become imperfect by sinning against the Most High. That's all I can think of to explain it.

[^_^Bubbles^_^]

hmmm,i dont know....lol

[SaintJoe69]

yes, i can see that some of the following was very insightful participation in this discussion, and was not meant to spam this thread.

as far as the thread goes, people first need to determine what they mean by sin, and where sin evolved from, in order to determine who committed it for the first time. without the proper elements in an equation, finding the solution would be rather difficult.

who sinned first? well, is the definition of sin the same for everyone? or was the definition created for man alone?

sin is almost equivalent to evil. did sin always exist, only for someone such as lucifer to discover it, or did lucifer have enough power to create something so evil from the beginning?

[meesh]

or did lucifer have enough power to create something so evil from the beginning?


hmmm..very interesting question there......

im thinking that the probability of sin was always there.........and i dont see creation as a power satan has......but more like distortion....

but then again..its 2 a.m. here in mississippi....and my head may not be on straight........ :lam:

[SaintJoe69]

where are the mods now? the ones who think that we discuss nothing but stupid threads, and live in the darkness, and shed no light? aren't we discussing biblical matters, and learning from each other? why is it that a mod would bash me and call me stupid, simply because i chose to participate in this thread? i personally don't think i live in the darkness... i mean, i have my night light on when i go to sleep.

as for the creation of sin... if sin was not created by lucifer, then you are suggesting that it has always been here, for lucifer to choose, just like it was there for adam to choose. i associated sin with evil, and if this is true, that would mean that evil existed before the creation of lucifer and the angels, awaiting a choice from them.

[meesh]

yeah...i guess that is how i see it.

do you have any ideas of how it could possiblly not be that way? does satan have creative powers?

and ps. nightlights are only good in the hallways......the more light in your room when you sleep the poorer quality of sleep you get..........something to do with melatonin and stuff.......unlessyou are deathly scared of the dark and would get no sleep with the nightlight. in that case...a nightlight with some sleep is better than none at all. people who have night jobs....its gotta suck for them.....

[SaintJoe69]

i always thought it was the least amount of cockroaches that actually crawled into your mouth at night was what determined whether or not you slept well the previous night...

as for the sin and evil, it goes back to the question posed by the other thread that was created a while back... did God create evil, or did it always co-exist with Him? we, as humans, have always believed that this battle of good and evil has always existed, but we have never stopped to think when it started, or how it could have always been good vs. evil, if only good existed in the beginning... it's mind puzzling at times, but our little minds comprehend only what we can see most of the time. faith plays a big part in what we do on a daily basis.

i'd like to give the example of skydiving... once you jump out of that plane, you better hope you see that rip cord in your hand, because you're definitely not going to see the ground beneath your feet. you had better have faith that your parachute is going to open up. if not, then you had better pretend you are superman, and enjoy your flying capabilities while you can.

seeing that rip cord, and having the faith that it will open your parachute are two totally different parts of your last minutes of life, as the wind is flowing past your face at 98 mi/hr. the earth may look beautiful from up there, and it may be peaceful, but as the earth gets larger and larger, that is when your faith becomes stronger and stronger... either that or you start praying harder and harder.

[meesh]

haha nice analogy.....

and its not roaches...its spiders....and i keep my mouth closed....and i dont drool either..so no way for bugs to get in there...........unless they crawl thru my nose......

*shivers*...i just got goosebimples and now my nose itches......ew ew ewwwww

[tenazrael]

actually... woman did!

why... well because God told her also that she must not eat of the fruit...

why do i say that... 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

so yes the woman was also told that she must not eat the fruit... poor Adam being a nice guy like all guys... to make Eve feel better... he took a bite too and thereby taking all the blame for his woman...

gosh... guys rock dont they :D

[meesh]

wait a minute now...God never told her.....he told adam...and it was adams responsibility to tell her..which obviously he did....and then added some....the whole "do not touch part" was never in Gods original command. kinda shows those who go to total extremes. like in health for example...some people will eat only fruits and nut.....no vegetables......cause they say vegetables came after sin....which i find false......but hey. this is just an example.

[tenazrael]

wait a minute now...God never told her.....he told adam...and it was adams responsibility to tell her..which obviously he did....and then added some....the whole "do not touch part" was never in Gods original command. kinda shows those who go to total extremes. like in health for example...some people will eat only fruits and nut.....no vegetables......cause they say vegetables came after sin....which i find false......but hey. this is just an example.


aye carumba... i mean cmon really... i also don't see the Bible mentioning that Adam went to the bathroom... i wonder if God created him with a colon!

Eve stated to the serpent... *ps. you may want to read my verse again* that she knew totally that she wasn't supposed to eat from the fruit.

Its like me saying to a banking teller, i know the law says stealing is wrong but if what your telling me is true about the banking having lots of money... then im gonna steal a little!

bank teller... satan... robber (you) eve... and money is the apple!

:D

[meesh]

ok...so she knew......but the fact that she went to the extreme with the not touching i think made her vulnerable to being proved wrong.

i mean...if satan wanted to...he could have told her...what? not touch it...? just touch it and see ifyou die..and once that happened....then all her faith in anything God said would have vanished....and only because she added something that wasnt there in the first place.

im not disagreeing with you that she knew....but do you get my point?

i think satan sinned first..but if you are talking about adam and eve...then of course eve. cause she ate .....God said dont eat, that was a commandment....(not to be confused with the 10) and the Bible calls the breaking of a commandment a sin.....there for she sinned as soon as she ate......and then adam after her as soon as he took a bite.

you might even say that eve had a double sin....cause not only did she eat the fruit herself....but she became a stumbllingblock....and she made adam sin too.....so she had twice the problems....

[tenazrael]

ok...so she knew......but the fact that she went to the extreme with the not touching i think made her vulnerable to being proved wrong.

i mean...if satan wanted to...he could have told her...what? not touch it...? just touch it and see ifyou die..and once that happened....then all her faith in anything God said would have vanished....and only because she added something that wasnt there in the first place.

im not disagreeing with you that she knew....but do you get my point?

i think satan sinned first..but if you are talking about adam and eve...then of course eve. cause she ate .....God said dont eat, that was a commandment....(not to be confused with the 10) and the Bible calls the breaking of a commandment a sin.....there for she sinned as soon as she ate......and then adam after her as soon as he took a bite.

you might even say that eve had a double sin....cause not only did she eat the fruit herself....but she became a stumbllingblock....and she made adam sin too.....so she had twice the problems....


plus she was naked... and even bigger stumbling block if you ask me... so she sinned 3 times all in one sitting! :eek:

[meesh]

haha what??? and you dont think it worked the other way around? you see....adam hadnt eaten of the fruit yet...so she could see but he couldnt......so it was teh other way around.......lolol.......

[tenazrael]

haha what??? and you dont think it worked the other way around? you see....adam hadnt eaten of the fruit yet...so she could see but he couldnt......so it was teh other way around.......lolol.......


which is exactly why she was so pushy about him eating the fruit... she wanted him to check her out cause apparently she was already enjoying what she was seeing :D

[meesh]

hahaha lol.....pushy,eh? if you told my parents-in-law that eve was pushy.....they would tell you that eve musta been a romanian woman......lol

i guess they have me and their pastors wife to thank for that.....(and we two look alike too and both of our husbands are americans)

hmm....so she was pushy........lolol