Deep issues, Big questions, & Bible answers...

[RsL]

Who is Michael (Daniel 12:1) mentioned in the Bible...

Some say He is Christ, other\'s say He\'s merely an angel...

Still others, label Him as an arch-angel...

Find verses that shed light on this subject, you give a few, and I\'ll give a few, it\'ll be fun...

Let\'s tackle one topic at a time... Once we resolve this question, we\'ll move onto the next...

Atleast, this is my suggestion...

First verses:

Daniel 12:1
Jude 9

Thanks,

God Bless

RsL

[Iacob]

I belive when they speak of Micheal in that passage they speak of the arcangel Micheal.

\"the great prince who protects your people\"

In Daniel 10:13 they call Micheal \"one of the chief princes\" therefore i believe Daniel is referring to Micheal the arc angel.

[Adelina]

Jude 1:9
But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse Satan of blasphemy, but simply said. \"The Lord rebuke you.\"

Daniel 12:1
\"At that time Michael, the archangel (also called the great prince in other translations) who stands guard over your nation, will arise...

Revelation 12:7
Then there was a war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels.


So far, I have learned that Michael is:

\"one of the chief princes\"
\"your prince\"
\"the great prince that stands for his people\"
\"the archangel\"
\"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon....and his angels\"

Interesting topic....I like:thfro:

[RsL]

Ok... So Michael is:

*\"your Prince\"
*\"the Great Prince that stands for his people\"
*\"the Archangel\"

And He fought with Satan:

\"Michael and His angels fought against the dragon....and his angels\" Rev 12:7

If you read on in revelation 12 after verse 7 we see that this \"casting out of the enemy\" happened in conjunction with verse 10, & 11a

\"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of the brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.\"

\"And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb...\"

Here we find something very interesting... What you ask?

The Word \"NOW\", that is in verse 10, \"Now is come salvation and strength...\" Why? Continuing on:

\"for the accuser of our brethren is cast down\"

Who is the accuser? Satan. How do we know, it says the dragon was cast down...

Verse 9 tells us the dragon = serpent = Devil = Satan...

So we\'ve established that salvation and strength came WHEN (NOW) the accuser, Satan was cast down.

When did the brethren (the accused in verse 10, that is, us), receive salvation?

At the Cross... Is that what this is talking about? Read verse 11, it is the answer...

\"And they overcame Him by the blood of the Lamb...\"

Who is the Lamb? Christ. When did He shed His blood? That\'s right at the Cross.

So When was Satan cast out? At the Cross.

The question is now, who gets the credit? Who is responsible for:

\"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ...\"

You see, if Salvation and Strength came because the accuser, satan, was cast down, then whoever cast Him down get\'s credit for:

Salvation & Strength

\"He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.\" Psalms 62:6

\"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.\" Philippians 4:13

Well Jesus get\'s the credit! But wait a minute, the Bible says Michael cast the dragon and His angels out of heaven.

Does this mean Michael is Jesus?

Let\'s not be presumptious, let\'s seal this off completely...

Let\'s go with what we know:

Michael the Prince, and Archangel cast Satan out of heaven at the Cross.

How many names does Jesus have? Alot, here\'s a few:

*Messiah
*Lamb of God
*The Rock
*Son of God
*Son of Man
*King of Kings
*Lord of Lords
*Prince of Princes (Dan. 8:35, Dan 9:25)

Let\'s look at what both Christ and Michael have in common.

*Both are given credit for salvation.
*Both for strength.
*Both for conquering the enemy (Christ given credit in Dan. 8:35, and all through the bible)
*Both have their own angels
*Both called Princes
*Both Stand up at end of Time (Christ stands in Revelation, Michael in Daniel)
*and More undoubtedly...

Yet only one we pray to...
Only one is mentioned in detail as our saviour...

Could it be they are the same?

Let\'s prove it conclusively now with 2 more verses.

\"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:\"

I Thess. 4:16

So Christ descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael)... and the dead in Christ rise...

Now the question is, could it be Michael\'s voice that shouts and wakes the dead? He could have been coming with Christ.

In order to prove Jesus and the Archangel (Michael), are one and the same, just as Christ and the Rock, we would have to find a text saying that this voice of the Archangel, that is of Michael, the Prince, is indeed Christ, our Saviour, Redeemer, the Son of God, our Brother who went to prepare a place for us that He might receive us unto Himself.

So the question we must answer, is there such a verse? Yes!

Read John 5:28

\"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,\"

Who\'s voice? This still isn\'t conclusive...

Read John 5:25

\"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.\"

Well there we have it! Christ is Michael the Archangel, it is Jesus\'s voice the wakes the dead, the Archangel that is.

Why call Jesus Michael? Why not just call Him Jesus?

Well that\'s a good question but hear are a few equally qualified statements:

Why call Him the Lamb?
Why call Him the Rock?
Why call Him the Word?
Why call Him the Bread of Life?
Why call Him the Water of Life?
Why call Him the Messiah?

Because He is! One name, one title, just could not do Him justice, so the Bible uses many...

Anyways, thanks for the discussion... Can\'t wait until next time... Somebody post a study idea, for the next topic in this forum/thread...

God Bless

Shane

[R0m0_Angel]

wow, I have to say, this was definetly really awesome..... it really had me thinking! Thanks! God Bless!

[Adelina]

Very very interesting topic and answers. I wanna ask some older frati their interpretation of it and see what they say and then present your answer and see their response and how they can explain it...Great insight on the subject, I love intellectually and spiritually stimulating topics...God bless:D:D

[RsL]

Yeah, ask away... I\'d be very interested to see what additional Light they may shed on the subject.

There is much more information than what we have uncovered here... Let me know what you find!

God Bless

Shane

[Adelina]

Yea, defintiely I\'ll get other people\'s insight on this subject too, because to tell you the truth I\'ve never even thought about this subject. It\'s quite interesting. In the meantime, do you have any more light to share on the subject that you haven\'t shared all ready?:):)

[PrayerISpower]

Why do you speculate that this verse is refering to Michael????? I do NOT see anywhere in this verse written that Michael, as you say it is the archangel used.

\"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:\"



So Christ descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael)... and the dead in Christ rise...


Do you honestly think there is only ONE angel??? And let me ask you what angels are used for, or what does God do with SOOO many angels in heaven???? Aren\'t they used as his messengers and \"helpers\" if i can say that?? Sooo why can\'t Michael and other angels \"help\" overthrow the satan? And why can\'t Jesus use the voice of an archangel to trumpet his coming?? Why did Jesus say in Matthew 26:53 that he could call God to send him 12 legions of angels to his side??? When he could\'ve gotten away from them himself if he wanted too. yet he would have 12 legions of angels to help him if he wanted to. I know there are a lot of \"Why\'s\" but hopefully they can be answered. I just started hearing about this lately....when did this whole Jesus, Michael thing start??

[RsL]

Let me start by saying, God does not wish us to get into controversy over topics that are not of a Salvational importance, so forgive me if I have implied that type of importance upon this topic.

This question will undoubtedly arise to an of you who may be studying the Bible with friends or family.

I don\'t believe that ANY question that is provoked by scriptural reference, such as \"Michael the Archangel\", should be ignored from a searching indivdual.

My foundation for this principal of trating all Biblically founded questions \'equal\' is from the Biblical quote I believe I mentioned earlier:

\"All scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, and for instruction in righteousness\".

Now to you first question:



Why do you speculate that this verse is refering to Michael????? I do NOT see anywhere in this verse written that Michael, as you say it is the archangel used.


Well, I do not believe one has to speculate to come to the said conclusion in the Bible, namedly that verse.

As I mentioned in earler in reference to a passage in John (read it in full as I will not take the time to quote it all here):

Read John 5:28

\"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,\"

Who\'s voice? This still isn\'t conclusive...

Read John 5:25

\"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.\"

It is quite clearly Jesus\'s voice, \"THE\" Son of God, mentioned here causing the dead in Christ to rise.

This is speaking of the same event that you quoted in yur question regarding the implication of Michael the Archangel in Thessalonians:

\"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:\"

I Thess. 4:16

Again we find \"THE\" as an introduction to the individual receiving credit for the voice that wakes the righteous from their sleep, obviously the same individual.

So how do we know this is speaking of Michael the Archangel? Simply this, if you look again at Daniel 12:1, and readng on into the next few verses you will find that, though next in exact quotation, it too is speaking of the time surrounding this event.

Illustration: If we have just finished watching a basketball game between the Lakers and the Bulls and the Bulls win and I say:

\"My favorite team is \'THE\' winner!\"

Am I talking about the Portland Trailblazers? No of course not. How do you know?

Simply this, my statement dealt with an event that took place at a specific time.

*Time & Place=In front of the TV Set
*Event=Lakers VS Bulls
*Outcome=Bulls Win

Statement:

\"My favorite team is \'THE\' winner!\"

No let\'s look at this in comparison to the Biblical aspect of this principle.

*Time & Place=End of time/Earth
*Event=Second Coming
*Outcome=Righteous dead are raised.

Statement:

\"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of \'THE\' Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:\"


You see, the Bible never leaves us guessing, it would not introduce a new player into the equation this early in the game without telling us:

Amos 3:7- \"Surely the Lord God will do NOTHING without telling His servants the prophets.\"

You see, it is Christ\'s redeeming work to make us new, no normal angel has the creative ability to raise ALL the dead to life.

You see, in the beginning God said and it was... In Revelation the Lord tells us, \"Behold I make all things new...\"

Well, instead of going on and on, I\'ll close, if this does not clear things up let me know...

May God contnue to bless you in your study of His Word, that He may work through you to bless others, ultimately leading masses to Him...

God Bless, and Thank you...

Shane

[RsL]

Yes I believe there is more than one angel... We know each one of us has atleast 2, and there are 6 billion people that means there are atleast 12 billion angels....

1/3rd of the angels fell away (with the dragon) so there are at least 6 billion fallen angels...

The fallen are out numbered 2 to 1 by the unfallen.

Yes, angels are messengers, yes they are God\'s helpers, we find mention of this ALL through scripture.

Though, not one mention of this gives an Angel right to be worshiped, as a matter of fact, an angel told Daniel not to worship him.

Nor do we find any mention of angels having the power to create, give life, etc. Except for the mention of The Archangel calling the dead to life in Thess., but as we have seen this is cleared up in John.

Anyways, I think that should cover it...

Excellent questions though.

God Bless

Shane

[meesh]

..looking up the word \"arch\" in the concordance..........means leader...the leader of the Angels. who might that be?

i dont know if what i just wrote helped or not...........but i hope it does.

[Nygel]

Angels are created beings. Archangel Michael is an angel. Therefore he was created.

God was not created. Therefore God is not Archangel Michael.

[Iacob]

Now that is a very intersting point you\'ve made Novellation!

It says that in the beginning was
The Word of God (aka the Holy Spirit), The Father (God), and the Son.

Personally i believe that Micheal the Archangel is not Jesus. They are two different beings. I may have missunderstood but i will ask my pastor about his view!

--Emy

[paris]

hey everybody, great discussion going. my student bible gives a little bit of insight... \"the view of Christ\'s birth in revelation 12 gives a glimpse into the pattern of the entire book. john is fusing things seen with things normally not seen. in daily life, 2 parallel histories occur simultaneously: one on heaven and one on earth.\" in revelation they are viewed together. see, nobody imagines what was going on in heaven when Jesus was born, but revelation 12 tells us satan was like a dragon waiting to devour the baby. yet, on earth, angels were spreading the good news to shepards and every scene i\'ve noticed reflects joy! now, rsl had the whole argument that since the archangel michael cast down satan and a loud voice in heaven said \"now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of God,...\" that Jesus and Michael are one and the same. BUT, think of it as simultaneous events happening on earth and in heaven! isn\'t it possible that as Jesus drew His last breathe upon a cross, in heaven archangel michael (the leader) was ending the \"physical\" war with satan and his followers? [b] when i first came across this discussion i felt something in me protest about calling Jesus the archangel michael. yet, rsl\'s point of view was very convincing. but, the truth is that all the names that Jesus has- Lamb, Shepard, Lion of Judah, Meassiah, Prince of peace..... the list goes on and on. these are all names given to Him by the bible and if you look at each one, they aren\'t specific personalities. they are more personifications of a concept, even animal. yet, the archangel micheal IS a personality. and i think most definitely other than Jesus. anyway, reminds me of the mormons- they think Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. NOT!

[Iacob]

great insight on the topic Paris! Much appreciated!

[Nygel]

Paris When did the war between the good angels and the bad angels take place?

[paris]

novellation, i think there have been multiple wars between angels and demons. i think you were specifically referring to the war i mentioned from revelation 12:7 (\"and there was war in heaven. michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back....\")
i honestly don\'t know where i stand on that issue. if you read all of chapter 12 it reads like a history... the devil being cast from heaven with his third of angels... the birth of christ... the war between angels and demons, with the devil being hurled to the earth... a voice in heaven proclaiming salvation- which we know happened with the resurrection of Christ.. and then it tells about the dragon pursuing the woman who had given birth to the male child. btw, i know that symbolically some say that the woman is israel and the 12 crowns were the 12 tribes. i think that it\'s not of great importance when the war took place... some may believe it still needs to take place.
revelation is definitely a book i don\'t even claim to know an inkling about. one of the problems with understanding it is that we cannot conceive something without putting it on a timeline. yes, time is flying by here in phoenix, but in new york, people are living reality in \"my\" future. i can\'t even comprehend the time zone changes, much less the fact that multiple things are happening in heaven. it just confirms that we are so small and insignificant, yet Jesus was given for us. how amazing!
the only reason the whole revelation thing came up was because of the \"Jesus being Archangel Michael\" debate... anybody still have feelings on that?

[Nygel]

I\'m not sure when Satan was thrown out of heaven either. But I thought it was after he decieved Adam and Eve. I\'ll try to do some research see if I find anything.

[paris]

novellation... you\'re missing the point. it doesn\'t matter. and plus, are you now talking about when satan first rebelled and was cast away? who cares when the war took place?
also, the devil was already \"out\" of heaven when he deceived adam & eve. how could he be God\'s follower and at the same time deceive man? the bible shows that even though satan has no place in heaven, he can still communicate with God. for example he talked to God about Job....

[Scared of Sarmale]

If Satan was thrown out long before the Jesus took on human flesh than the two things are not at the same time.

[paris]

it definitely is interpretive. RsL was saying that since the devil was cast down by archangel michael and a voice said \"now\" is salvation.... and we know salvation happened through Christ, then (in a nutshell) archangel michael is another name for Jesus. obviously i don\'t agree... now, people... instead of dissecting every sentence i wrote.. do what i did- read the verses, meditate on them and give your opinion on whether or not Jesus and michael are one and the same, K?
i was just theorizing that maybe as Jesus was resurrected and death was beaten... in the spiritual world archangel michael (with the fighting angels) were winning a war with satan. that was the rationale i was giving for that word \"now\" in chapter 12 and the way RsL tied it in to make his/her point.

then novellation started asking about the war and madness started. who knows?? who knows what revelation is all about? john was seeing a vision... it\'s not a history being written by people in that time. thank God we do have the promises from revelation and we know without a doubt that God triumphs always!!

[RsL]

Hey guys, been traveling, I see you are diligently studying God\'s word...

novellation, interesting point. I would have to agree, angels are created beings, and God is not.

What then, about Bread, is it created? or Water? The Lamb? and even the Rock.

You see, Christ has many names, specific to the roles He plays in His great work of salvation.

Why then does He call Himself the Archangel? Simple.

Archangel = leader of the angels.

Let me just re-iterate that the Archangels \'shout\' wakes the dead, and Christ takes credit for doing so in Matthew.

I won\'t repeat all the Truth related to this topic, that\'s the great thing about forums you can just reread what I\'ve already written.

Thanks paris, for the email! Sorry about the delay...

in closing here\'s a small list of some titles of Christ represented by creation:

*Bread (Manna)
*Water
*New Wine (grape juice)
*Rock
*Son of Man
*Our Brother
*etc.

Is Christ created? Or is He eternal as His Father?

He is not a created being, He is the Creator...

God Bless

Shane

[RsL]

You see...

If the bible placed Christ on earth at the same time it spoke of the Archangel in heaven, then quite clearly they could not be the same.

This is why novellation, most likely asked when the dragon (satan, the enemy) fought with Michael and his angels...

Side-note... Speaking of \"personality\", as paris mentioned...

Personalities of the titles of Christ:

*Messiah- The promised one
*The Lamb- Precious, unblemished, sacrifice
*Saviour-Self explanitory
*Son of God- no description needed
*The King- great deal of personality
*Michael (arch angel)- Micheal means: Who is like God...

Back on track with the question posed by Novelation and Scared of Sarmale...

It is important to establish the order of events of the \"Great Controversy\", that is depicted in Revelation 12...

Now if we read revelation 12 and find that from the first verse to the last all things mentioned are in order then there is some validity to this idea that there was some type of physical battle of the angels...

But, i will propose in this post that the events are not in order at all... rather that they build upon each other...

Let me explain, read Rev. 12:1-5

Here we see depicted the woman (God\'s Bride, that is to see His church, people, etc.) gives birth to a MANCHILD, Jesus (Jesus\'s lineage is through the chosen people or nation of God...

After Jesus, the MANCHILD was born He is caught up to heaven, to God, and His throne...

Now, how old is a child? 5yrs, 10 yrs, maybe 15-20yrs? Was Christ born and then directly caught up to heaven?

Not at all... He lived to be about 33 before He was crucified, and then resurected...

You see everything in these first 5 verses is correct, but is not the entire story...

There are many events which can be filled in between His birth and ascension...

*Baptism
*Disciples
*Miracles
*Crucifiction
*etc.

Reading on you will find another depiction of the same events, and then another...

I could go on, but I believe the more I say, the less room their is for the Holy Spirit to convict.

Read through Revelation 12, meditate upon it as paris has said, keep in mind that God uses the principle of \'repeat and enlarge\' when relaying truth to us.

Much like the way you learned mathematics, first a simple introduction with 1+1=2 until you had a good foundation of events for God to build an even greater knowledge of Truth in your haert, mind and charachter.

God Bless...

Study Hard...
...Pray Harder

[paris]

ok, about the events in revelation chapter 12....

verses 1 &2= woman pregnant about to give birth... israel

verses 3&4= satan sweeping a third of the stars (angels) to the earth and then waiting to devour the child about to be born.

verse 5= lady gives birth (Jesus) \"and her child was snatched up to God and to his throne\"

verse 6= \"the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1260 days.\"

NOW SKIP TO:

verse13= \"when the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child\" i think this gives a case for the war (between michael and the dragon) to have been completed here since it says the dragon was hurled to the earth...

then verse 14= we NOW just see the woman fleeing to the desert where she would be taken care of for \" a time, times and half a time\" a time is used to represent a year so this would mean 3.5 years which equals 1260 days...

so.. my point is that yes, in verses 7-12 lies Jesus\' time on earth and ALSO the \"war\". in verse 5&6 where the baby is snatched up and the woman flees into the desert to be taken care of a \"pause\" occurs (i propose that verses 7-12 happen here- Jesus is crucified and resurrected and in heaven satan is beaten by michael BECAUSE of the cross) which is proven in verse 13 where the dragon is hurled to the earth, because only then do we start to see the woman actually getting \"wings\" to fly into the desert and the earth takes care of her.

at the end of the chapter we see that the dragon was enraged that the earth was protecting the woman (israel) and so he went off to make war with the rest of her offspring- those who obey God\'s commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus (us).

i have never before heard of anybody saying Jesus is archangel michael! sorry, but i don\'t think we made a discovery here. Jesus IS God. archangel michael is NOT God. a gaurdian angel of israel and
a leader of angels sure.

if we go back to Daniel where we started and read all of chapter 10, 11 & 12, we see daniel getting this vision. the vision is hard to understand it\'s about kings and wars... i think it gives us a glimpse into how angels are involved in the \"going ons\" of earth. the man (in the vision)daniel talked to was an angel. verse 11 \"i have been sent to you\" (God\'s messanger?) he makes a statement of being detained and michael coming to aide him. IN BATTLE, PEOPLE! then, in verse 19 daniel makes a comment \"...since you have given me strength\". hmm, an angel giving a man strength?\" if we propose that only Jesus gives people strength (i think someone was equating salvation and strength with Jesus being michael), then this angel must be Jesus too! but, this angel already said michael had come to his aide, so we know this angel and michael are not the same. anyway, i think michael is the gaurdian angel of israel. i think countries have gaurdian angels. i think angels were very involved in the earthly wars and protecting countries- especially during the old testament. i think they primarily are involved in protecting the church since Christ\'s resurrection.

anybody see what i\'m seeing? God Bless!

[KrazyEuro]

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

From this verse, they say that Christ will shout with the archangel's voice, so therefore, He must be the archangel. There are a number of things to point out here....

First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word "with" means "accompanied by". For example...."I went to the store WITH my wife." Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.

[KrazyEuro]

Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"


Mark 8:38

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. "

It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.

Truly now, when did Jesus Christ EVER refrain from accusing Satan, or rebuking him under His own power? Never! Jesus had all authority, and Satan and his demons fled from Jesus' word. Jesus never had to say "the Lord rebuke thee", because HE WAS THE LORD! Michael, however, could not say this.

But I believe the best evidence, by far, that Jesus is not Michael, is found by reading Hebrews chapter one. The very theme of this Scripture is to show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ, over the angels. Look at the following verses in Hebrews chapter 1....

v. 4- Jesus is "so much better than the angels"

v. 5- Jesus is contrasted with the angels of heaven, in that He is the only begotten of the Father.

v. 6- God the Father gives the command for ALL of the angels of heaven to WORSHIP Christ.

This verse MUST NOT be overlooked when speaking to JWs. God the Father has NEVER commanded the worship of an angel. And the fact that God commands ALL angels to worship Christ, would have to include Michael himself, because Michael is an angel. Therefore, Michael is NOT Jesus Christ, but is one of the angels that worships Jesus Christ.

v. 8- God the Father refers to Jesus (The Son) as "God".

When did the Father ever call an angel "God"?

v. 10-12- God the Father speaks of Jesus (the Son) as the Creator of all things.

(See also John 1:3).

John 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Hebrews chapter 1....

v. 13-14- Again, Jesus is contrasted with the angels, in regards to his authority.

In chapter 2 of Hebrews, in verse 5 we find a very interesting statement....

Heb. 2:5- "For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak."

According to this passage, angels will not be the rulers of the world to come. But we know that Jesus Christ WILL be, meaning that He cannot be an angel.

In Heb. 2:9, we are told that Christ was made "a little lower than the angels", for the purpose of becoming human and dying for our sins. After His resurrection, He was again exalted to His previous position as being "SO MUCH BETTER than the angels" (Heb. 1:4). So, Christ has occupied the position of being BETTER than the angels, and He has also occupied the position of being a "little lower" than the angels. But not one Scripture ANYWHERE states that He has occupied the position of an angel.

Hebrews 2:16 says that Christ "took not on Him the nature of angels;"

Though this Scripture is a reference to His becoming human, NOWHERE is there a passage saying that Christ has the nature of angels.

[KrazyEuro]

are you a jehova witness??

[meesh]

hmmm this is an interesting thread......

no..i dont think he is a jehovah witness.....cause he mentioned in his other posts that he believe that Jesus is God and that he took part in creation..

i see where he is coming from....some of ya missed the point...

like this one:.....when the dead in christ hear JESUS'S voice....they will rise.......that verse says that when jesus comes....with the voice of the archangel....then the angels shall go gather all the elect from the whole world.

umm..arch means leader...

angel.....doesnt necessarily mean flying creature of God. it means MESSENGER......look it up people.......take those concordances off the shelves....and read them.......

archangel.....is a leader of angels. granted that doesnt mean much.....but the verse about Jesus' voice raisin the dead is very key.

what is a prince? michael is called the prince.......umm..i dont remember that title being given to anyone but JESUS.....

by the way...i am NOT SAYING that Jesus is an angel.......not by far!!!! Jesus IS GOD, AND CREATOR. i believe that he is called the archangel cause he is the LEADER of angels.....the leader of messengers if you will......

[KrazyEuro]

i got a question, was micheal the archangel before or after the new testament??

[meesh]

i think that he was teh archangel (leader of angels) in both test.

just like Jesus was present in the old testament in the firey oven with shadrach mesach and abednego......he existed back then too..just in a different form.......and Jesus does have many names..

remember the name michael means "he who IS like God." i dont konw of any angel that can meet that description......do you?

[KrazyEuro]

can you bring scriptural proof to back up ALL you just said right there? and yah micheal means is "LIKE" well Jesus "IS" so how can you say they are the same? just a question :bfro:

KrazyEuro: yah im like a bird!!

Bird: I am a bird!

KrazyEuro: alright we're the same, rock on!!!

Bird: ummm no, your krazy, im a bird!!!

KrazyEuro: but im just like you!!

Bird: yah, only you lack everything i have!

KrazyEuro: who cares, people say im like birds.

Bird: yah now i can see why, pest!

KrazyEuro: you, you're a funny one hahahaha :bfro:

THE END! :bfro:

[meesh]

hahaha.....youre such a dork!!! haha ..but at least your a funny one...lolol

umm....here this example is not a good one.....

because YOU say your a bird.....but you just lostyour mind in that little illustration.....

but the BIBLE says that michael is like God. how can an angel be like God? angels are not created in God's image.....we are..........

but it sure aint talkin about us.....cause we are not "the prince" or "the protector", or even leaders of angels. Jesus is the only one that fits ALL of the criteria....

[kristinutsa]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
are you a jehova witness??

:laf: I thought you were asking RsL that question, because he is Banateanca's hubby. :laf:

SJ

[KrazyEuro]

Originally posted by banateanca
hahaha.....youre such a dork!!! haha ..but at least your a funny one...lolol

umm....here this example is not a good one.....

because YOU say your a bird.....but you just lostyour mind in that little illustration.....

but the BIBLE says that michael is like God. how can an angel be like God? angels are not created in God's image.....we are..........

but it sure aint talkin about us.....cause we are not "the prince" or "the protector", or even leaders of angels. Jesus is the only one that fits ALL of the criteria....

just like the army, has a colonel, so is micheal the archangle, but above that colonel is a general which is Jesus. yes micheal is a leader of some sort.

the bible says that the son of man will come with the shout of a voice like the archangel right??

well ponder this, in an army, there are lots of generals, but there is one main general, "THE" general, just like micheal is an archangel, but jesus is "THE" archangel.

and the son of man will come with the voice of "THE" archangel, it doesnt say micheal or any other angel, it says "THE" archangel..

just like general bob, and general sanders, and general krazy and general sainty, but "THE" main general is general cosmin... we're all generals, but cosmin is "THE" general...just like us royouthians

we have members, and above members there are moderators, and above moderators there are administrators...

goodnight im tired bye :bfro:

[kristinutsa]

Actually, in the army, there are many generals. That is because of the different divisions and troops that we split them up into. Maybe you want to refer to Jesus as the Chief in Command, aka the President, who controls all of the generals, and all of the lower ranks.
:D

SJ

[meesh]

Originally posted by kristinutsa
:laf: I thought you were asking RsL that question, because he is Banateanca's hubby. :laf:

SJ

i dont think he knew then, that rsl was my husband....

[KrazyEuro]

would it had made a difference if i knew then?? probably not, no disrespect, but JW's believe that micheal the archangle is Jesus the Christ...thats part of their doctrine...thats why i asked... and yes...Jesus is the leader of all the armies, aka the president of all.. micheal the archangle is under Jesus leading the army as well....

[meesh]

are you sure? i know that they believe that Jesus is a created being and that he was a brother with satan.....which is totally off.....but i didnt know that they thought of his as the archangel.

again..if they think he is an angel...they are wrong. i am NOT saying that Jesus, in any way is an angel. just like MONARCH means one king.......so does archangel means king of angels....just like that song says by 3rd day......in that song, i think its called "king of glory".

[KrazyEuro]

so do you believe that micheal the archangel is Jesus the Christ?


and yah, JW's believe that he is! i did a little study on it, and thats part of their doctrine, thats why i asked :bfro:

[meesh]

hmmm.....interersting.....

yeah.. i honestly do believe that Jesus is also called Michael the archangel..

now mind you..im NOT saying that Jesus is a created being or that he is an angel. i am saying that Jesus is part of the God head.....and that michael the archangel...the prince of God's people.....is really Jesus......just another name for him