Are you a chosen one?

[SaintJoe69]

Predestination. Here you may discuss and debate on whether you believe in it or not, and why you might believe in it.
:D

Enjoy, but be calm. :twak:

[hotromolove247]

yes...






(i felt sorry that no one has posted on ur thread)

[Nygel]

No I do not believe in predestination.

I believe God gives us the freedom to choose. This would include choosing to reject God and as a result going to hell. It doesn't make sense for God just to toss certain people into hell no matter what their lives were like.

[SaintJoe69]

So, you mean that basically, God put us both at the south pole and told us to go and find Santa at the north pole for no reason?

Or was it just because of our free will that you decided not to go? :scratch:

[Nygel]

you make no sense.

[stinkinQT]

WHAT IS PREDESTINATION.. IS IT MAKING YOUR OWN CHOICES?

[jusjak]

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him who have been called according to his purpose . For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Rom 8.28-30 (NIV)


these few verses do not do justice however to the complete book of Romans, and the subject at hand, i would like to encourage everyone to take the time to sit down and read Romans, and if not the whole book then some select chapters (3,8,9) again it would probably be best to read the whole book.

[KrazyEuro]

ephesians 1:11-14 "11. In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guranteeing our inheritance until the redemtpion of those who are Gods possesoin-to the praise of his glory"

predistination i agree as the scriptures tell us, however not only the predestined people have recieved salvation and redemption through Christ, but also those who chose to believe were added as the scriptures tells us. i believe in predestination because the scriptures tell us, at first i didnt believe it for some reason, people told me about it but never backed it up. But studying His word opened my eyes to this and apostle pauls words are clear to this. you can choose to believe it or not, its comes straight from the bible....
God knew who to pick, its not like he closed his eyes and started pointing and saying "i choose you you you and you but not you but you you you not you but you you and you" i doubt he did that...God knows all, he knew who to pick and who would be fishers of men! its like saying that God picked 30 million people.. and then God is intensely waiting to see the outcome of those 30 million people...in a sense your saying that God is in heaven doing this "omg omg omg omg omg i wonder if he's gonna stick with me omg omg omg please do omg omg" ...i believe he said "i chose you and your gonna be fishers of men" and all im gonna say is "yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord!"

[Andy]

we were all (every soul) CHOSEN from the beginning of time to be with God.

[KrazyEuro]

apostle paul talks about in ephesians 12 that even us who were the FIRST to become in Christ and then in verse 13 talks about how even "you" became to believe in Christ....past and present it talks about...how can you justify what you just said andy? apostle paul clearly states that their were the Chosen ones and then people who later on believed were also ADDED to the body of Christ...apostle paul says that..are you telling me he's wrong??

[whoRu]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PunkGurl4Christ7
WHAT IS PREDESTINATION.. IS IT MAKING YOUR OWN CHOICES? [/QUOTE

Some say that Predestination means, that because God is Sovereign, He already CHOSE from the beginning who His children would be.

Because of this, there SEEMS to be two arguments.
1. God is Soveriegn. He chose you from the beginning. You don't have a say, because God already established who He wants to choose.

2. Man has free-will. We have a choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Both sides of the parties will choose good verses to support their answers. The one who believes in God's Soveriegn Choice often will use Ephesians 1:4-5, 11 and Romans 8:29-30

The one who believes in Free-Will and Man's own choice will often use John 3:16...

So, the question is... If you think that these are your only two options, which one is it? And, ARE YOU A CHOSEN ONE?

[Nygel]

Quoted directly from http://www.bibletruths.org/cults/predestination.htm
Predestination
The doctrine that God chooses some to be saved and that the others have absolutely no opportunity for salvation is often called EXTREME PREDESTINATION. It is also referred to as CALVINISM, or the following of the teachings of what some believe John Calvin taught, and others.

Predestination is taught in the bible, but the philosophy that God chooses who will be saved is false doctrine. The Bible teaches that saved people are predestined to GLORY, and that Christ rejecters are predestined to the LAKE of FIRE. Jesus Christ was predestined to die, etc. But never do we read of people predestined to be saved. God’s foreknowledge and sovereignty is never in question with true believers. Elect, chosen, called etc. does not necessarily refer to the saved, but more often Israel.

A link that might explain it more is http://bible.freehosting.net/Predestination.htm

[whoRu]

It's the Arminianism View VS. The Calvinism View....

Or maybe another view.....

[KrazyEuro]

theres truth to both..there are chosen ones..and then added ones...like the romanians says...add salt to the eggs..it adds flavor!! :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Salt and eggs! I see this might get veered off the track again. :tut:

Both the Ephesians and the Romans verses that were posted are good scripture examples. This would go back to the question of the possibility of losing one's salvation.

Let's use a simple analogy:

Predestination is like a group of people waiting for a train, one that is headed to a special destination. Everyone crowds around because they all want to get on the train; however, only a few are given tickets to board the train. That would be predestination of receivng a ticket for the train ride.

These questions come into play when talking about this analogy:

1. Can somebody else take your ticket from you?
2. What if you suddenly fall dead, before the train comes, and you had a ticket?
3. Can you freely give your ticket away, or is it non-transferable, like a "mark" on your hand or forehead. :D
4. If you have no ticket, is there any hopes that there would be a ticket scalper around? Or is that just false hope?

***SIDE NOTE*** I can see that the apostle Paul is Krazy's favorite one. hehehe

Ok, Romans talks mentions predestination, but this appears to be in a sense of a person that has been born to fulfill a prophesy. A predestination to bring glory to God.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

This is very vague and could mean that the people we currently consider to be "predestined" might include people such as Billy Graham, in today's society. Or using the Bible examples, it might include any of the people in there ranging from Moses, to any of the apostles (as it states in Ephesians).

Now according to Ephesians, it speaks of the Holy Spirit as being your "ticket" on that train. This takes us back to the questions about the ticket.

"In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

This talks again about having been predestined to "glorify" God.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guranteeing our inheritance until the redemtpion of those who are Gods possesoin-to the praise of his glory"

This, however, does not mention predestination. It talks about salvation through believing in Christ.

Predestination could simply mean that God chose you to be born, for His glory, even before you were born. It does not mean that all those that believe were predestined.

[SaintJoe69]

Sorry, I had to save that in case my computer did an auto shutdown.

Ok, as I was saying...

Predestination does not mean that all those who believe were predestined for Heaven.

Can you lose your ticket to Heaven? I think so.
Can you catch the train by riding outside of the car, hanging on to it, without a ticket? Hmmm... :scratch:
Can you freely give your ticket away? I think so.

Predestination could simply mean that you were there, among the crowd, and had a possibility to receive a ticket. Just because you are in the crowd, does not mean you will get a ticket.

One does not get a ticket from hanging around others that have a ticket. :tut:

[whoRu]

For some it's hard to grasp. Did God choose us? or did we choose God? It's God's Soveriegnty granting us the free-will to choose Him or reject Him. Those that are now in the likeness of His Son because they believed, (and we're not forced) God already foreknew it. Just like He foreknew everything else. If you accept the Father's love through His son Jesus Christ, then He has already lavished His love on us. And if God has lavished His love on us, then we are called Children Of God.

God is always at least one step ahead of us.. (to say the least)
Before we even thought about sinning, He ALREADY died for us.
Before we chose Him, He ALREADY chose us
Before we even knew Him, He already had our days numbered

[SaintJoe69]

Um, so are you agreeing with predestination or are you trying to argue against it?

I use analogies to answer questions, but it seems that you use questions to answer questions. This is not Jeopardy.
:D

I would guess from what you just said, that you do believe in predestination, and that some people just don't view it as the way you do.
:scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

sainty...i mean we probably agree on something...but to answer questions...which is better..to use analogies to answer biblical questions..or use questions to answer biblical questions..OR..use the bible to answer biblical questions...in this sense..you could take both of your reasonings and flush it down the toilette because they're just "ideas' of what you think to be true...im not saying you guys dont make valid points...but the way you approached his answer by saying... "i answered in analogies and you answered in questions..this is not jeapordy" who says your analogy was the right one? or his questions were the right one? obviously the only way to figure that out..is refer back to the bible :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
sainty...i mean we probably agree on something...but to answer questions...which is better..to use analogies to answer biblical questions..or use questions to answer biblical questions..OR..use the bible to answer biblical questions...in this sense..you could take both of your reasonings and flush it down the toilette because they're just "ideas' of what you think to be true...im not saying you guys dont make valid points...but the way you approached his answer by saying... "i answered in analogies and you answered in questions..this is not jeapordy" who says your analogy was the right one? or his questions were the right one? obviously the only way to figure that out..is refer back to the bible :bfro:

Hmmm... I think it was predestined that I would recieve such an answer as this from KrazyEuro.

Let me give you this analogy: :wall:

[KrazyEuro]

i would beat my head against the wall too after periodically being proven wrong by a dude with the name "krazy" in it :lol2:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
i would beat my head against the wall too after periodically being proven wrong by a dude with the name "krazy" in it :lol2:

You still have the same label. The perk is no good unless you choose to use it.
:D

Oh, and since I'm in the thread... am I the chosen one. That's what Neo has to ask himself.
:scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

why does neo have to ask himself that? he found that out in matrix 3...sheeesh..the your terminology is out of my league.. :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
why does neo have to ask himself that? he found that out in matrix 3...sheeesh..the your terminology is out of my league.. :bfro:

What?! Neo died in the last one! Doh! Sorry for those that haven't seen the movie, yet.

Predestination... according to The Matrix, predestination was nothing more than a programming of the human. As with all artificial intelligence, the human was still allowed to choose not to follow his set programming, the one he was originally designed to do.

Hmmm... it was a good christian movie. I do not suggest that everyone watch it. It might make them think.
:D

[KrazyEuro]

that was a good christian movie?? i thought it mocked christianity and its beliefes...hmm :scratch:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
that was a good christian movie?? i thought it mocked christianity and its beliefes...hmm :scratch:

Hmmm... well, you have to look deeper into the story... even if they did get a little shotty in Revolutions.
:thfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
that was a good christian movie?? i thought it mocked christianity and its beliefes...hmm :scratch:

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy was a good movie, too. It deals with the basics of good and evil.

[KrazyEuro]

yah the Lord of the Rings was directed by a Christian dude based on the bible...

Return of the King and so forth...its a good movie

matrix was in a sense mocking it....

[swtlips]

'THE CHOSEN ONE'

REMINDS ME OF THAT AWSOME GAME I HAVE...FALLOUT...DO YOU GUYS PLAY THAT? IT'S THE BEST.

YES, I THINK I AM CHOSEN TO SPREAD THE WORD, AND I AM CHOSEN TO SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS. I AM ALSO CHOSEN TO REPRESENT GOD'S WILL. YUP YUP I AM CHOSEN :D.

[KrazyEuro]

i think you were chosen to spread your signature to people!

*VERY BAD IDEA!* :lol2:

[swtlips]

I AM A LOVER...NOT A FIGHTER!!!!!! HAHA

[KrazyEuro]

(i dont think they make a smiley for this but i'll give it a shot) :hahahahahahahhahahaha: no comment :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

i guess they dont make smileys for that :bfro:

[swtlips]

ARE YOU POKING FUN AT ME :(?

[KrazyEuro]

no never! i was hahaing and saintjoes comment. i would never make fun of you. we're moderators in high places... cmon rebel be serious :bfro:

[swtlips]

I'M SERIOUS...I WAS HURT... LOL...

[KrazyEuro]

awww :( i apologize, i'll keep my distance, i dont wanna hurt anybody ever again!

[swtlips]

AWWWW *SNIFFLE* APOLOGY ACCEPTED!!! YOU ARE FORGIVEN!!! :D...HOW CAN ANYONE RESIST :( ...TOO DULCE!!!

[KrazyEuro]

as soon as you said dulce..it felt like i had a candy in my mouth and it felt sweet...for some reason that word affected my heart in such a way i felt it....this is wierd... what have you done to me rebel?? a curse i hope not! :bfro:

[swtlips]

OF COURSE NOT! YOU'RE JUST A FEEM OF MY UNDUBITABLY IRRESISTABLE COMMENTS HEHE...WHOA WHOA HUGE WORDS THERE...OKAY HAHA...AWW HOW DULCE YOUR WORDS FLOW IN HARMONY... :)

[SaintJoe69]

Hmmm... should either of you have been the chosen ones? :rolleyes: :sly: :D

[swtlips]

I LOVE THAT SMILIE...THE 1ST ONE HEHE...CAN I HAVE IT?

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by Rebel Dork
I LOVE THAT SMILIE...THE 1ST ONE HEHE...CAN I HAVE IT?

Well, KrazyEuro knows what the combination is for. :D

[swtlips]

OUF ARE YOU GUYS KEEPING SECRETS FROM ME? LOL...STOP POKING FUN...AGAIN... :(

[KrazyEuro]

:lol2: it was a cute combo ya :bfro:

[swtlips]

CUTE LIKE ME?

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by Rebel Dork
CUTE LIKE ME?

Muhahahahaha :lam: I wrote a poem just for California. :thfro:

[swtlips]

OH I READ IT HONEY. JUST TYPE WISELY FROM NOW ON, PLEASE :). THANKS :thfro: !!!

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by Rebel Dork
OH I READ IT HONEY. JUST TYPE WISELY FROM NOW ON, PLEASE :). THANKS :thfro: !!!

Wisdom is not mine to give, for I am not the chosen one. Wisdom is for you to find, when it is offered.
:D

[swtlips]

:) HAHA DON'T BUST OUT 'WISE' WITH ME THERE BUDDIE...BECAUSE WISE COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE...AND REAL KNOWLEDGE IS KNOW THE EXTENT OF ONE'S IGNORANCE --CONFUCIOUS. SO DON'T YOU TRY THAT ON ME :tut: OKAY? OKAY. GOOD.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by Rebel Dork
:) HAHA DON'T BUST OUT 'WISE' WITH ME THERE BUDDIE...BECAUSE WISE COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE...AND REAL KNOWLEDGE IS KNOW THE EXTENT OF ONE'S IGNORANCE --CONFUCIOUS. SO DON'T YOU TRY THAT ON ME :tut: OKAY? OKAY. GOOD.

Oh, you have a stack of fortune cookies with you, too? :D

[KrazyEuro]

countered attack with the truth go read the poem that was made for the youth! :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
countered attack with the truth go read the poem that was made for the youth! :bfro:

Which one? The one you added to the California thread? :D

[KrazyEuro]

AMEN! good thang you found it :bfro:

*and by it i mean the truth* :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
AMEN! good thang you found it :bfro:

*and by it i mean the truth* :bfro:

Hmmm... poems were never really my strong point. They never proved anything and could be illogical. What was the point?
:rolleyes: :sly:

[KrazyEuro]

that you found the poem :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

:rolleyes: :sly:

[meesh]

:scratch: :scratch: rendevous (is that the word you use, when you feel like you have been thru this experience before???)

[KrazyEuro]

:scratch: explanation: to explain what you just said and meant by it :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
:scratch: :scratch: rendevous (is that the word you use, when you feel like you have been thru this experience before???)

:laf: Rendevous is a meeting, like a planned meeting. Banateanca and SaintJoe will rendevous at the designated point.

The word you are looking for is deja vu. I pointed this out in a thread. In fact, I think I have a thread just for it somewhere.

Rendevous?! :thfro:

[meesh]

haha lol :wall: i knew it had a vou in there.......yeah deja vou....thanks joey!

haha rendevous.......ummmmm....yeah. (ps. do you know how i used to say that till like about 5 years ago? rend-ez-vus......cause i didnt realize it was like a french word. haha lol )

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
haha lol :wall: i knew it had a vou in there.......yeah deja vou....thanks joey!

haha rendevous.......ummmmm....yeah. (ps. do you know how i used to say that till like about 5 years ago? rend-ez-vus......cause i didnt realize it was like a french word. haha lol )

Those French have some messed up "views". :laf:

Rendevous, parle vous, and deja vu, among all of their other disoriented views. :whip:

[Nygel]

Originally posted by banateanca
haha lol :wall: i knew it had a vou in there.......yeah deja vou....thanks joey!

haha rendevous.......ummmmm....yeah. (ps. do you know how i used to say that till like about 5 years ago? rend-ez-vus......cause i didnt realize it was like a french word. haha lol )

Funny. That's how I pronounced it to. :lol2: How could the french do that to us? :tut:

[meesh]

haha...this is great....i got my own little support group. i used to think that i was the only one in the whole world who said it like that. its great to know that im not the only one.....lololol

[SaintJoe69]

So, back to the point of predestination...

Yes, you will eventually rendevous with God if He has predestined you.

ROMANS 8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is only one mention of predestination in the Bible. I would put more, but you guys should do your own search if you don't believe in it, and you are trying to debate against it.
:thfro:

[KrazyEuro]

1 ephesians 1:1-15 also talks about predestination :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

i dont believe in full on predistination, im half and half :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
i dont believe in full on predistination, im half and half :bfro:

:lol2: How can you be half and half? That's like half and half on salvation. :tut:

[KrazyEuro]

predestination and salvation are totally 2 different things, i cant believe that response came out of your posts! :lol2: you should know better cmon now! :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
predestination and salvation are totally 2 different things, i cant believe that response came out of your posts! :lol2: you should know better cmon now! :bfro:

ROMANS 8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Hmmm... when we are given salvation through the Holy Spirit, are we not "renewed" in the mind, or "transformed" as you say it, into the image of his Son?

Would we not be predestined to be given salvation, if that is the meaning of predestination?

Hmmm... :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

:thfro: sure guy

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
:thfro: sure guy

MUHAHAHAHAHA I just wanted to quote this before you changed it. :thfro:

[vdorin]

Predestination is a Christian doctrine according to which a person's ultimate destiny, whether it be salvation or ****ation, is determined by God alone prior to, and apart from, any worth or merit on the person's part. I think we are all predestined.. but ofcourse

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by vdorin
Predestination is a Christian doctrine according to which a person's ultimate destiny, whether it be salvation or ****ation, is determined by God alone prior to, and apart from, any worth or merit on the person's part. I think we are all predestined.. but ofcourse

See?! :thfro:

[KrazyEuro]

Originally posted by SaintJoe69
:lol2: How can you be half and half? That's like half and half on salvation. :tut:

i believe you were saying that predestination and salvation are the same thing, and all i said is NO, and then you argued against me, now miezu said its either ****ation or salvation, and im wrong?

sure guy :thfro:

[vdorin]

what do you mean by being half and half?

[KrazyEuro]

if we were all predestinated to go to heaven, thats basically saying we have no chioce, like someone said i forgot who probably saintjoe, the prophecies were the predestination people/or events, John the Baptist i think was predestinated and so forth, the ultimate predestination of man was Jesus Christ on the Cross, thats the predestination i believe its talking about.. now after what Jesus had accomplished, i believe we have a free choice to accept it or not, and people who do, i believe they are saved! and i also hold to the fact that once saved always saved! the calvanist review...they believe that you are predestined without say! and once saved always saved, i hold to the once saved always saved but not the predestination of their views..thats why im half and half....half calvanist and half altheissm (however you say their names) :lol2:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
if we were all predestinated to go to heaven, thats basically saying we have no chioce, like someone said i forgot who probably saintjoe, the prophecies were the predestination people/or events, John the Baptist i think was predestinated and so forth, the ultimate predestination of man was Jesus Christ on the Cross, thats the predestination i believe its talking about.. now after what Jesus had accomplished, i believe we have a free choice to accept it or not, and people who do, i believe they are saved! and i also hold to the fact that once saved always saved! the calvanist review...they believe that you are predestined without say! and once saved always saved, i hold to the once saved always saved but not the predestination of their views..thats why im half and half....half calvanist and half altheissm (however you say their names) :lol2:

Hmmm... all this time you were telling me that you were all Christian. :D

[emi2975]

we all are!\
it might sound if not
but deep inside
we all are
because
we are all his children waitin to go home and we just got put on earth untill the day we return

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by emi2975
we all are!\
it might sound if not
but deep inside
we all are
because
we are all his children waitin to go home and we just got put on earth untill the day we return

So, everyone is predestined for Heaven? Then what is the purpose of putting us here temporarily on Earth?
:scratch:

[emi2975]

your put on earth
but have to make the right decision
to get there
but in the beginin
we all have the same chances of gettin there in the begining

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by emi2975
your put on earth
but have to make the right decision
to get there
but in the beginin
we all have the same chances of gettin there in the begining

Then we were all predestined in the beginning? :scratch:

[emi2975]

stop!! your comfusing me!

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by emi2975
stop!! your comfusing me!

:lol2: Were you predestined to be confused? :scratch:

[Nygel]

Originally posted by SaintJoe69
Then we were all predestined in the beginning? :scratch:

Are people predestined to be born? Only some people or all people?

[meesh]

i believe that God meant for everybody to be saved. i mean, we are all his creation and he doesnt want anyone of us to be lost. just like it says in the Bible, that He desired that none of us should perish, but be saved.

i dont believe in the predestination. at least not that kind. cause it would limit us and we wouldnt have freedom of choice anymore, and i believe that is at the basis of how God rules.

then, God would be looked at as a cruel being to allow some people to live their lives here on this earth and go thru all they go thru and to know that they have no choice where they are going. they might as well have been animals with "souls". so, the whole predestination thingy undermines God and true christianity , and real love.

therefore.....predestination can not be a part of God's plan cause it is not just, and God is a God of justice.

amin.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by novellation
Are people predestined to be born? Only some people or all people?

Obviously, some people were predestined to be born, so that the prophecies of old could be fulfilled. However, the prophecies of old have not yet finished telling their tale.

If we say that all are predestined to be born, then those that are DOA or stillborns were a mistake? Or were they predestined to be DOA?
:scratch:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
i believe that God meant for everybody to be saved. i mean, we are all his creation and he doesnt want anyone of us to be lost. just like it says in the Bible, that He desired that none of us should perish, but be saved.

Ok, based upon what Jesus said in John 3:16-17, I can see where you are coming from.

i dont believe in the predestination. at least not that kind. cause it would limit us and we wouldnt have freedom of choice anymore, and i believe that is at the basis of how God rules.

Who says that having freedom of choice aka free will does not limit us? Just the fact that we have free will limits us based upon the decisions we make.

then, God would be looked at as a cruel being to allow some people to live their lives here on this earth and go thru all they go thru and to know that they have no choice where they are going. they might as well have been animals with "souls". so, the whole predestination thingy undermines God and true christianity , and real love.

What is that saying... entertain your fellow brethen because you don't know if he is an angel?
:scratch: Jesus wanted us to love everyone, even though He knew there was evil in the world. If we love everyone, should we not love satan, too?
:tut:

therefore.....predestination can not be a part of God's plan cause it is not just, and God is a God of justice.

amin.

That is not just for us, but may be just for God. We do not know what He has planned for us. If we were not predestined to be saved, and we lived life as though we thought we were saved, maybe it was for the purpose of saving someone else that had been predestined.

Hmmm... You have to ask yourself, Banateanca. Is Shane in your life because YOU chose him to be, or because God delivered him to you? Is it your will or His will?

"What is thy bidding my master? Let your will be done, and not mine."

Too many times, we get caught up in the world and in ourselves that we forget who we are really serving. Is it ourself/man, or is it God?
:scratch:

[meesh]

hmmm......God has a plan, that is for sure......but He allows us to choose. yes, God brought Shane into my life in a very miraculous way......but i could've refused that gift. then, what would have happened to how God "predestined "us to meet? cause i am sure if He predestines one thing, he can do the same to everything else.

if God predestined satan to be bad, then we all have God to blame for the misery of this world. He wouldnt be considered a Good God anymore. nobody would want to love Him anymore. and if i know God, he would be crushed if His creation didnt love him. its just how it goes.

if you had a son, you wouldnt tell him and make him say "i love you dad" three times a day, wether he means it or not. you would rather wait for the right time when your son will express that to you of his own free will. that is when it really means something to you. it is the same with God.

God didnt create robots, or people to be wasted and thrown away and lost forever. that just goes way against God's nature....

oh, and joe....i thought you didnt agree with this predestination stuff. are you just trying to make me think?

[MaRK!]

i aM one of the chosen ones.
i hear voices and they tell me so.:wall:

lol

[meesh]

haha mark...you nut......lol:twak: :laf: :box:

[George73]

De ce-ti place pisicuta asta? Ea e simbolul rautatii...

Domnul sa te binecuvanteze.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
hmmm......God has a plan, that is for sure......but He allows us to choose. yes, God brought Shane into my life in a very miraculous way......but i could've refused that gift. then, what would have happened to how God "predestined "us to meet? cause i am sure if He predestines one thing, he can do the same to everything else.

if God predestined satan to be bad, then we all have God to blame for the misery of this world. He wouldnt be considered a Good God anymore. nobody would want to love Him anymore. and if i know God, he would be crushed if His creation didnt love him. its just how it goes.

if you had a son, you wouldnt tell him and make him say "i love you dad" three times a day, wether he means it or not. you would rather wait for the right time when your son will express that to you of his own free will. that is when it really means something to you. it is the same with God.

God didnt create robots, or people to be wasted and thrown away and lost forever. that just goes way against God's nature....

oh, and joe....i thought you didnt agree with this predestination stuff. are you just trying to make me think?

Predestination is not about your every day living. It is not about every single choice a person makes. It concentrates on the end result. Are you chosen by God to be with Him. There are several instances of predestination in the Bible. Again, certain events and characters from the Bible were predestined so that the prophecies of old could be fulfilled.

I thank God for predestination, otherwise we would not have Jesus. :bow::worship:

[meesh]

OK..... but i dont believe anyone is predestined to be lost.

hey george......ce? simbolul rautatii? nici de cum. sarpele e mai bine zis ca e acel simbol. chiar si caini sint mai rautaciosi decit mitele. dar ori cum...imi pare bine sa vad pe un timisorean. eu sint din satchinez,daca ai auzit.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
OK..... but i dont believe anyone is predestined to be lost.

hey george......ce? simbolul rautatii? nici de cum. sarpele e mai bine zis ca e acel simbol. chiar si caini sint mai rautaciosi decit mitele. dar ori cum...imi pare bine sa vad pe un timisorean. eu sint din satchinez,daca ai auzit.

Well, it can't be that everyone is predestined for Heaven, either. So, which is it?

I mean, it all began with Adam and Eve, for us, at least. We have little or no idea what happened before Adam was even created, other than the little bit that's stated in the Bible.

Was Adam predestined to sin? Predestined is an odd word. It's hard to really understand the meaning of the word unless it is looked at from outside of the box. With predestination, people question free will. If there is no free will, then that destroys part of the Bible. There is enough controversy on the validity of the Bible, on which all Christians have placed their belief.

It's starting to tamper with my thinking. The more I research on a particular topic, the more I find that contradicts the subject, too. I'm starting to get a little confused at times.
:eek:

[meesh]

huh???? mr. joey confused?????? thats not possible!!!!!!!


haha jk, brother.....just couldnt resist.

i believe that God has a certain will or "wish" for our lives. yet we make our own choices, and at the same time, if our choices pull us away from the path God planned on us to be, He makes up other little paths to get back onto the main path......like redirecting.

God does have a plan...........but He still lets us decide.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
huh???? mr. joey confused?????? thats not possible!!!!!!!


haha jk, brother.....just couldnt resist.

i believe that God has a certain will or "wish" for our lives. yet we make our own choices, and at the same time, if our choices pull us away from the path God planned on us to be, He makes up other little paths to get back onto the main path......like redirecting.

God does have a plan...........but He still lets us decide.

You are supporting the predestination theory again. If we keep getting redirected back to the same direction, then it just shows that we are going to end up at the same spot no matter which path we take. This is the example that I originally used to start the discussion off with Novellation.

If we are both at the south pole and are both told to head to the north pole to find Santa, then it doesn't matter which direction we take, we should eventually end up at the north pole. There are a few flaws to this example, but nonetheless, a fairly decent analogy.

I thought you were against predestination, Banateanca? :scratch:

[Deitiere]

I belive that the free will is what God gave us in order that we may choose a path. Also, I belive that All human beings HAVE TO CHOOSE one path or another; which is To Accept Jesus or to reject Jesus. [you cant be somewhere in the middle] ~SO THIS IS WHERE THE FREE WILL PLAYS IN.

The predestination is What shows that God is in control of all his decisions. Because God is wise and Knows all things, He already knew who would choose him and who would not. So, for those who he saw would choose him, He predestined them to carry out certain tasks, such as "being fishers of men" . He had made a plan to bless them, and to redeem them, and to do everything else he does for them and for HIS glory through his awsome power. I really dont think that God ever picked out certain people to predestin to hell. His character isnt like that. He isnt a cruel and eager-to-destroy type of person. Remember the Bible describes Satan as the theif, and destroyer... not Jesus. And besides, When Jesus carried our sins on the cross, he was shunned out by the Father God because of everybody's sins. Never think that Jesus didnt have in heart to save all man kind. OF Coarse he did. ITs merely man's decision that takes himself ultimitely where God has already seen him go . . .

OK. God Bless . I Love You Guys!!!! BYE
__________________________________
JEUS LIVES FOREVER AND EVER!

Jesus is my HomeBoy :) :)

[Deitiere]

I belive that the free will is what God gave us in order that we may choose a path. Also, I belive that All human beings HAVE TO CHOOSE one path or another; which is To Accept Jesus or to reject Jesus. [you cant be somewhere in the middle] ~SO THIS IS WHERE THE FREE WILL PLAYS IN.

The predestination is What shows that God is in control of all his decisions. Because God is wise and Knows all things, He already knew who would choose him and who would not. So, for those who he saw would choose him, He predestined them to carry out certain tasks, such as "being fishers of men" . He had made a plan to bless them, and to redeem them, and to do everything else he does for them and for HIS glory through his awsome power. I really dont think that God ever picked out certain people to predestin to hell. His character isnt like that. He isnt a cruel and eager-to-destroy type of person. Remember the Bible describes Satan as the theif, and destroyer... not Jesus. And besides, When Jesus carried our sins on the cross, he was shunned out by the Father God because of everybody's sins. Never think that Jesus didnt have in heart to save all man kind. OF Coarse he did. ITs merely man's decision that takes himself ultimitely where God has already seen him go . . .

OK. God Bless . I Love You Guys!!!! BYE
__________________________________
JEUS LIVES FOREVER AND EVER!

Jesus is my HomeBoy :) :)

[meesh]

yeah....the same here...i dont believe in predestination to be lost. even if God knows that person is stubborn and doesnt want to recieve God, God still does everything to bring that person in. Just like Jesus did with judas. If Jesus knew that Judas would be lost....why waste the time to teach him for 3 years? yup.....Jesus still tried to bring him in ...to change his heart.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
yeah....the same here...i dont believe in predestination to be lost. even if God knows that person is stubborn and doesnt want to recieve God, God still does everything to bring that person in. Just like Jesus did with judas. If Jesus knew that Judas would be lost....why waste the time to teach him for 3 years? yup.....Jesus still tried to bring him in ...to change his heart.

Jesus had to let Judas do what he was going to do. It was to fulfill prophecy. In Judas' case, it was more indirectly telling him, even though Judas knew it was him. Peter, too, was told about the future and the prophecy, but Peter was told directly by Jesus about his triple denial.

I don't believe that all humans have to choose. Again, I bring back the examples of the babies and the children. Who chooses for them? At what age is a person given "free will" to choose his/her own path?
:scratch:

[meesh]

i cant say that you dont have a good point....but i still believe there is a balance there.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by banateanca
i cant say that you dont have a good point....but i still believe there is a balance there.

Where is the balance when it comes to babies and children? :scratch:

[meesh]

what do you mean?

[61leumas]

i think predestination is only for God not man...

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by 61leumas
i think predestination is only for God not man...

Yes. Good observartion. God was predestined to be God. Hmmm... who would have ever known?
:twak:

[KrazyEuro]

i dont agree with that...i believe John the Baptist was predestined and he's not God, the anti Christ is predestined but he's not God, im open minded when it comes to discussion, i wanna see scriptural evidence to justify what people say, not just opinions :bfro:

[meesh]

hhhmmmmm...this is really an interesting subject.......i'll have to really dig into some books about this......

[KrazyEuro]

the bible talks about the anti christ, isaiah talks about the anti christ, jeremiah, ezekial, daniel, they all talk about the anti christ, in a vision they had they warned the nations, is that predestination? or hope for the visions to come true? i believe is was predestined to happen. Malechai 4:5 talks about how Elijha will come back for a 2nd time to dwell in the hearts of man and let them know about Christ, 500 years later, John the baptist was known as the 2nd Elijha, is that predestined or just coincidence? i believe some people were predestined to be who they were, and only those people that he bible talks about :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
the bible talks about the anti christ, isaiah talks about the anti christ, jeremiah, ezekial, daniel, they all talk about the anti christ, in a vision they had they warned the nations, is that predestination? or hope for the visions to come true? i believe is was predestined to happen. Malechai 4:5 talks about how Elijha will come back for a 2nd time to dwell in the hearts of man and let them know about Christ, 500 years later, John the baptist was known as the 2nd Elijha, is that predestined or just coincidence? i believe some people were predestined to be who they were, and only those people that he bible talks about :bfro:

Oh, so now, you're telling me that only if someone has been visioned or foretold by the Bible, that makes them available for the category of predestination?

Um, that would leave out all of us for predestination, because I don't remember Eli being predestined, nor do I remember my name. My name is in the Bible code, though, so maybe I am predestined.
:scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

we werent predestined to be children of God, the predestinatino of those names that i mentioned were to bring Light to Gods word! Jesus's 1st coming, his death, and his resurrection is the predestination the Bible talks about, you were not predestined to be Gods child, but you were predestined to be here at this time, the bible says GOd knew you before you were conceieved, so he knows all things, but he gave you the choice to choose what you wanna choose, not force you!

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
we werent predestined to be children of God, the predestinatino of those names that i mentioned were to bring Light to Gods word! Jesus's 1st coming, his death, and his resurrection is the predestination the Bible talks about, you were not predestined to be Gods child, but you were predestined to be here at this time, the bible says GOd knew you before you were conceieved, so he knows all things, but he gave you the choice to choose what you wanna choose, not force you!

Hmmm... this is just stating the obvious, then. If you are alive, then you were predestined. Hmmm... that makes sense.
:rolleyes::sly:

[KrazyEuro]

congratulation :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

Originally posted by SaintJoe69
Ephesians 1:5 talks about predestination...

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (KJV)

So that we may understand the context of this verse, I will show the context of the verses surrounding it, according to Paul, in the NASB translation:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

So, exactly who is predestined and what are we predestined for? :scratch:

i know theres no point in arguing this cus your mind is already set and your not gonna change your ways, but according to his kind intention for what will?? the predestination he's talking about is Jesus Christ coming down and dying for our sins, and we may be adopted on believing that, what was his intention? to die for our sins, on beliving that, we are no chosen people...
verse 13 goes on to say

13. and you were also included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, having believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promise holy spirit.

included in what? was there already a body of Christ? and whoever believed were added to it? verse 1a and 12 right before it says this

11. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out verything on coformity with the purpose of his will,

12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

there paul goes talking about "his will" again, what was his will? the predestination he's talking about is Gods sovreign plan for his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins, he chose certain people to get the message out, 12 disciples, apostle paul and many others...but verse 13 clearly states that we were included in Christ when we believed he is the son of God! there has to be something already there in order for us to be included! what is this something? i believe its the body of Christ, before we can be made a hand, we have to believe he has a body! did he choose us to be the hand? nah i believe he gave us the choice, he predestined his message to get out, he predestined his son to die for us, and now its our choice to accept it or not. The End :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

ask rick warren! he'll tell you, and im half and half with predestination, i dont believe in predestination fully. i believe in Free Will :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

oops free choice :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Ahhh... I finally found it. Sorry all. I was searching for this thread and decided to post in my others during my search. ;)

Ahhh... the good old days of debating. :D

[KrazyEuro]

Ahhh... I finally found it. Sorry all. I was searching for this thread and decided to post in my others during my search. ;)

Ahhh... the good old days of debating. :D


:lol2: yah, this is how debates go, me proving you wrong :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

:lol2: yah, this is how debates go, me proving you wrong :bfro:
Congratulations! You should post in my 3,000 thread in Chit Chat just for the fun of it. :D

[KrazyEuro]

gimme the link i cant seem to find it :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

gimme the link i cant seem to find it :bfro:
:topicoff: Here you go... 3,000 Thread (http://www.royouth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3605)

[Francois]

I believe that God knows each one of our hearts. He knows who is going to die a christian and who isnt. He knows who is goin to heaven or hell. But on this earth, in OUR LIFE, God grants us free will. He does not choose it for us. He gives us the options, WE make the decisions, but ultimately, GOD knows what we will choose. He is a loving savior who will not force ur hand. So do not make the wrong choice. And i agree, lets try to use a more Bibilical basis for this discussion,,,,,, than just our opinions and analogies..they dont take us so far in life anyway.

[SaintJoe69]

I believe that God knows each one of our hearts. He knows who is going to die a christian and who isnt. He knows who is goin to heaven or hell. But on this earth, in OUR LIFE, God grants us free will. He does not choose it for us. He gives us the options, WE make the decisions, but ultimately, GOD knows what we will choose. He is a loving savior who will not force ur hand. So do not make the wrong choice. And i agree, lets try to use a more Bibilical basis for this discussion,,,,,, than just our opinions and analogies..they dont take us so far in life anyway.
Analogies are good ways of expressing an example for others who may or may not understand the point a person is expressing. Jesus gave analogies in the forms of parables. Not all analogies will have a Biblical basis. :D

[KrazyEuro]

Analogies are good ways of expressing an example for others who may or may not understand the point a person is expressing. Jesus gave analogies in the forms of parables. Not all analogies will be have a Biblical basis. :D


dude that is soo my comment!! you totally stole my own words from me!! :argue: thief! :bfro: but i have love so its ok! too bad i aint sharing with you :scratch: jk..te pup :kiss2: fara rusine :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

dude that is soo my comment!! you totally stole my own words from me!! :argue: thief! :bfro: but i have love so its ok! too bad i aint sharing with you :scratch: jk..te pup :kiss2: fara rusine :bfro:
Nahh... your comment is "I concur", remember? :D

[dpeaches84]

Ok, so God gave all of us a free-will, but y is it that some will come to accept God and others not when confronted with salvation?..is that predestination right there?..or what would it be then?..dont know if anyone pondered that..or if thats even any different from what has been discussed...
=PEACHES

[BenypX]

yah... he did gave us a free will... but satan got hold of some people and the only way those ppl can get him out of their lifes is to go to church and pray to go for help... and we should support them in prayers

[dpeaches84]

yea, but still, y is it that some ppl are held back by Satan as u say BenypX and others not so much so, that they can except God..not all except God as their savior..I guess maybe its one of those philosophical questions..gotta wait till ur in heaven to understand, have answered...

[BenypX]

well... the people that arent held that much by satan r the ones that stay close to God and ask for Gods help.. i knoe other ppl stay close to God and they are still captured by satan... but thats because they dont ask for Gods help or they are just amazed by this worlds things... movies, games, computer... and a lot of other things....

[aliec]

The Puritans believed in Predestination, that God chose whether you would go to Heavan or Hell before you were even born...and the people of the Puritan society would often walk around in misery their entire lives beacuse they were certain that they were headed to Hell, and would commit crimes and sins, because that was what they were born to do; to sin and go to Hell when you died. The people who were predestined to go to Heavan of course had much fewer worries..but there were always those prying eyes from the community, watching you and waiting for you to commit a sin so that they might prove you were destined for Hell...

It wouldn't be hard to understand why the Puritans make up a tiny fraction of our population and have nealry died out.... because it would be inhumane to put such a burden on a human being their entire lives, and leave them dwelling in their fear of that one day when Death would come and they would meet their destination. God forgives all...everyone knows that right? So how can you really know where you where predestined to go if you don't know what changes could occur in your life...changes that would alter both your mind and heart. A person could be predestined to go to Hell...so what would the outcome be if they turned to God and were forgiven for their sins?

We shouldn't worry about whether we are chosen for Heavan or Hell...God knows everything about you and all the decisions you are going to make in your life, so he is the only one whole truly knows what will happen to you...what we need to do is live our lives to the fullest and for Him...and not fret over whether we are going to Heavan or Hell...trust Him and you will be safe, ask and you shall recieve, right?

[SaintJoe69]

yah... he did gave us a free will... but satan got hold of some people and the only way those ppl can get him out of their lifes is to go to church and pray to go for help... and we should support them in prayers
Interesting.... people have to go to church and pray before satan can leave them now, huh? :scratch:

What? You don't believe in exorcisms anymore? Gifted priests come to your house to expel the evil spirits within you. Goodness. You don't have to go to church or pray. ;)

[SaintJoe69]

well... the people that arent held that much by satan r the ones that stay close to God and ask for Gods help.. i knoe other ppl stay close to God and they are still captured by satan... but thats because they dont ask for Gods help or they are just amazed by this worlds things... movies, games, computer... and a lot of other things....
:laf: I apologize. Ummm... how close do you think Judas was to God? I mean, the man walked alongside of Jesus. He ate and drank with Jesus, yet he was still able to fall to satan's temptation. I wonder about some of the things people say sometimes. :sly:

[KrazyEuro]

:laf: I apologize. Ummm... how close do you think Judas was to God? I mean, the man walked alongside of Jesus. He ate and drank with Jesus, yet he was still able to fall to satan's temptation. I wonder about some of the things people say sometimes. :sly:


he walked alongside yes, but he was the devil before he walked alongside :bfro: so you cant really use that as an excuse (osas) :lol2:

[SaintJoe69]

he walked alongside yes, but he was the devil before he walked alongside :bfro: so you cant really use that as an excuse (osas) :lol2:
Hmmm... how can you claim that Judas was the devil before walking with Jesus? In which verse does it state that? :scratch:

Why would Jesus want satan walking "alongside" of Him as one of His disciples, when later He clearly tells satan to "get behind" Him? :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

John 6:70

70. Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

[SaintJoe69]

John 6:70

70. Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Doh! :eek::whip:

Yeah, I remember. I'll get back with this one later. ;)

[KrazyEuro]

Doh! :eek::whip:

Yeah, I remember. I'll get back with this one later. ;)


:lol2: why not just say,

Saintjoe: oops i made a booboo :bow:

:lol2: i thought romo's were stubborn :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

John 6:70

70. Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Ooops! I made a boo-boo. :D

Hmmm... I see this thread started about predestination, and has finally come full circle. This is a very good quote you posted. Predestination is not only for those headed to Heaven, but apparently for those that will be condemned. It was apparent that Jesus had to pick a "bad" apostle along with the other eleven "good" ones, in order to fulfill the prophesies of the Old Testament. Interesting. :sly:

So, if we are predestined for Heaven, and some are predestined for Hell, then how important is something like free will in this equation of life? :scratch:

[yacko]

St Joe, are you familiar with Turing machines?

If yes, do you believe that God has designed man to behave as a Turing machine?

[Tupi]

how would u guys put..so called.."mistakes from up above"..or niches together with destiny?

just lookin for opinion.

[KrazyEuro]

how would u guys put..so called.."mistakes from up above"..or niches together with destiny?

just lookin for opinion.


the only thing i agree with you on this statement is the...

"just looking for opinions"

there are no so called mistakes from above, nor niches, nor destiny :bfro:

all there is out there is faith in the Son of God from above :scratch: and more

[BenypX]

:amen: KrazyMod

[65stang]

I think that the beginning of a path is laid out for us, and its up to us to complete the path depending on the choices we make. The end of our path will determine our destiny. The mistakes in our life is our own wrongdoing, not the Lords, because we have the freedom of choice.

The arguments that 'God knows all' will counter this but thats what I believe even if it might not make any sense.

[BenypX]

:amen: again 65...

[KrazyEuro]

I think that the beginning of a path is laid out for us, and its up to us to complete the path depending on the choices we make. The end of our path will determine our destiny. The mistakes in our life is our own wrongdoing, not the Lords, because we have the freedom of choice.

The arguments that 'God knows all' will counter this but thats what I believe even if it might not make any sense.

i see what your saying, but you are correct, God knows all, he already knows the paths we're gonna make, but its our free will like you said. just cus he knows what we're gonna do, does not mean he made us do that. our paths are already laid out, from the beginning to the end, whether we walk on it or not, its entirely up to us. the paths were laid out for us! its out job to stay on it :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

St Joe, are you familiar with Turing machines?

If yes, do you believe that God has designed man to behave as a Turing machine?
No, I was not familiar with the Turing machines (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing-machine/), but I did a quick research on it. :D

We, as Christians, believe that God gave us a set of instructions, in which we call The Bible. However, unlike machines, we do not follow these instructions according, because we are not replicants of one another.

In the explanation of the Turing machines, it is compared to a software program. Software programs are known to have "bugs" in them, as you are well aware. To compare us with that of a Turing machine, or a software program, would mean that God designed us with flaws. Were we designed perfect? I have never believed that we were designed "perfect", but I am not sure if God designed us specificially and intentionally with "bugs" in our system. It is said that certain genes in our system can be "toggled" on/off. I believe that certain circumstances allow or restrict our "programming" to a certain degree.

In conclusion, to answer your question... No, I do not believe God designed us to work like Turing machines, because I feel that these machines are limited to certain degrees, according to the little bit that I read. As far as software programs go, it seems as though they can be written with intentional "bugs" and also safety measures. So, what exactly did you want to point out by bringing up the Turing machines? :scratch:

[yacko]

I am in not way comparing humans with defective Turing machines. However, I want to make you aware of the design philosophy behind them. Now, imagine God designing the human intelligence (as opposed to Artificial Intelligence, or machine intelligence). If we follow the Turing machine example of how the machine makes a decision consider the similarities.

A Turing machine is also called a finite state machine. Given a set of inputs, the outputs of the machine are determined by 3 and only 3 factors:

1. the inputs to the system (the question)
2. the state of the machine (for example, the line in the software program, the memory contents, etc)
3. the hardware of the machine (logical architecture, wiring... i other words, the design)
Based on these criteria, the designer of the machine can predict EXACTLY what the machine is going to do, every step of the way. If the designer can control every bit of the inputs, the machine is therefore PREDESTINED to make the decisions the designer envisioned.

If we were to analyze man as an extremely complicated finite state machine:

1. the inputs to the system. The environment we live in. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he controls (or at least knows) the state of every atom that makes up our environment.
2. the state of the machine. If God is ...(onmipotent and omniscient), he knows the exact state of every atom in our body, the total aggregate of our memories and experiences. He knows the state of the machine.
3. the hardware (i would include the soul here also). God knows how our brain works, because he created it. Therefore, he knows exactly how we are going to behave in a given situation.

If all these 3 factors are in God's control, or at least, he knows these factors, he knows EXACTLY how we are going to behave in all situations. He knows beforehand what choices we will make in life, apparently by design. Therefore, if God really is... (omnipotent and omniscient), we are bound to follow this decision process BY DESIGN.

If somehow you think there is something else affecting our thought/decision process as pertaining to free-will/predestination, let me know.

[SaintJoe69]

I am in not way comparing humans with defective Turing machines. However, I want to make you aware of the design philosophy behind them. Now, imagine God designing the human intelligence (as opposed to Artificial Intelligence, or machine intelligence). If we follow the Turing machine example of how the machine makes a decision consider the similarities.

A Turing machine is also called a finite state machine. Given a set of inputs, the outputs of the machine are determined by 3 and only 3 factors:

1. the inputs to the system (the question)
2. the state of the machine (for example, the line in the software program, the memory contents, etc)
3. the hardware of the machine (logical architecture, wiring... i other words, the design)
Based on these criteria, the designer of the machine can predict EXACTLY what the machine is going to do, every step of the way. If the designer can control every bit of the inputs, the machine is therefore PREDESTINED to make the decisions the designer envisioned.

If we were to analyze man as an extremely complicated finite state machine:

1. the inputs to the system. The environment we live in. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he controls (or at least knows) the state of every atom that makes up our environment.
2. the state of the machine. If God is ...(onmipotent and omniscient), he knows the exact state of every atom in our body, the total aggregate of our memories and experiences. He knows the state of the machine.
3. the hardware (i would include the soul here also). God knows how our brain works, because he created it. Therefore, he knows exactly how we are going to behave in a given situation.

If all these 3 factors are in God's control, or at least, he knows these factors, he knows EXACTLY how we are going to behave in all situations. He knows beforehand what choices we will make in life, apparently by design. Therefore, if God really is... (omnipotent and omniscient), we are bound to follow this decision process BY DESIGN.

If somehow you think there is something else affecting our thought/decision process as pertaining to free-will/predestination, let me know.
I had to wait until you finished your editing. The first time I read it, it just kind of left off abruptly. :D

Hmmm... yes, you have made some interesting points here. The only problem I can see is that there is something else that affects our free will/predestination. This would be called our individuality. Although we are all designed in the same manner (more or less), we are not bound to follow the design process due to this one factor.

Granted, conditions 1 and 2 are met, I do not agree with condition 3, when you state, "Therefore, He knows exactly how we are going to behave in a given situation." This is where the factor of individuality comes in and affects the end result.

[yacko]

"... Granted, conditions 1 and 2 are met, I do not agree with condition 3, when you state, "Therefore, He knows exactly how we are going to behave in a given situation." This is where the factor of individuality comes in and affects the end result... "

Individuality has nothing to do with it. God created us as unique individuals. However, as the designer of this individual machine, God is in no way affected by this factor. I have not implied that we all think alike. What I still submitt to you is the fact that no matter how unique or complicated we are, God knows our most detailed building blocks to be able to predict our behavior.

What I am trying to say is that to someone like God, we are just as predictable as Pavlov's dog! For him, we are as simple as 1+1=2.

[SaintJoe69]

"... Granted, conditions 1 and 2 are met, I do not agree with condition 3, when you state, "Therefore, He knows exactly how we are going to behave in a given situation." This is where the factor of individuality comes in and affects the end result... "

Individuality has nothing to do with it. God created us as unique individuals. However, as the designer of this individual machine, God is in no way affected by this factor. I have not implied that we all think alike. What I still submitt to you is the fact that no matter how unique or complicated we are, God knows our most detailed building blocks to be able to predict our behavior.

What I am trying to say is that to someone like God, we are just as predictable as Pavlov's dog! For him, we are as simple as 1+1=2.
Oh, I have no doubts at all about God and/or His powers. I thought this was about predestination. The scenario you gave led me to believe that predestination is evident because all three conditions of the Turing machine were supposedly met.

Please explain to me how the Turing machine relates with predestination, whether it's Heaven or hell. I am slightly tired at the moment, and I'm at work, so I may not be thinking clearly. :scratch:

[yacko]

I'll get to you later.... my brain is fried too.... :bsmile:

[Tupi]

i see what your saying, but you are correct, God knows all, he already knows the paths we're gonna make, but its our free will like you said. just cus he knows what we're gonna do, does not mean he made us do that. our paths are already laid out, from the beginning to the end, whether we walk on it or not, its entirely up to us. the paths were laid out for us! its out job to stay on it :bfro:

"our paths are already laid out, from the beinning to the end" this would mean...each one of us has a destiny in the end....destiny meaning path, and how that path ends. if our path is already ALL laid out...then God already knows the destiny He chose for us. the mistakes or niches in our path...are the things that build our character..the responses we give to certain situations thrown out at us..that shapes us into the characters we become...and also influences the path we chose to abide in. however...all this..niches come to one conclusion..destiny...whatever way we choose..that destiny was already designed for us.

[dpeaches84]

what u guys r sayin sounds like predestination..in terms of who is God's choosen, as in not all of us r..hmm..

[SaintJoe69]

what u guys r sayin sounds like predestination..in terms of who is God's choosen, as in not all of us r..hmm..
That's the whole concept of this thread. :D

[Tupi]

what u guys r sayin sounds like predestination..in terms of who is God's choosen, as in not all of us r..hmm..

are you sure we're not all chosen to some destiny? each one of us is "chosen" for something...in the end...no?

[dpeaches84]

yea but i dont agree..i mean those or the ideals of Puritans..early Protestants..i believe all can be saved, but then again not all are..ok i've officially confused myself!!..hahah

[dpeaches84]

are you sure we're not all chosen to some destiny? each one of us is "chosen" for something...in the end...no?

yea we all might be chosen for something..but arent we talkin about chosen to be saved..God's children?..

[Tupi]

well what are you predestined for? what happened to the ones who didn't end up.."saved"..arnt they a part of predestination as well?

[dpeaches84]

yea but thats not what the term of predestination in terms of the Protestant Ethic refers to..it is being destined for a certain Eternal Fate..unless that is what u mean, sorry then.. Yea so thats what im talkin about

[Tupi]

hmmm is Hell not an Eternal Fate as well?

[dpeaches84]

yes it is..i guess i misunderstood u..sorry
before Jesus died for us..we were all destined for Hell..but now we allll have the Opportunitiy for a greater fate of Life..i guess thats y im skeptical in predestination becasue it assumes that we are not given equal claims to Gods salvation

[Tupi]

hmm we were all destined for Hell before Jesus died. i dont think you have that one right. hmm....i would...REALLLY....want to speak to some of the Old Testament prophets and such when im in heaven lol

[yacko]

Oh, I have no doubts at all about God and/or His powers. I thought this was about predestination. The scenario you gave led me to believe that predestination is evident because all three conditions of the Turing machine were supposedly met.

Please explain to me how the Turing machine relates with predestination, whether it's Heaven or hell. I am slightly tired at the moment, and I'm at work, so I may not be thinking clearly. :scratch:

Let me run a hypothetical example by you. Suppose that we set up two machines to play chess. In this corner... Deep Blue, the meanest AI chess player in the world. Now, this computer is a true Turing machine, in the strictest sense of the word. Every move the machine makes is strictly specified in the programming, and hardwired in its architecture. The IBM designers can predict every move the machine will make for any given situation.

In the opposite corner, we have ... Daisy. Now, Daisy has been taking chess lessons for a while, and has become very proficient. Also, Daisy has an IQ of 200, which means that she has analytical skills beyond poor Deep Blue. Now, this is the $64,000 question: God being Daisy's creator, can he predict every move Daisy will make against Deep Blue, just like the IBM guys can? I submitt to you, that by using the Turing machine model, God can predict not only the moves Daisy makes, but also the timing of her moves, the emotional response when she wins, (or loses), and so forth.

If this model is true (which I believe it is), it means that God can predict exactly what choices we make when we choose our cereal in the morning, or whether or not we choose to accept Christ! We make these choices by design, because of our situation (inputs), lifetime experiences (state of the machine), and our intelligence or character (intrinsic hardware design). To me, it looks like a very strong case for predestination.

Absolute foreknowledge of the future and the choices we make (by absolute I mean the accurate prediction of the state of every atom in this Universe), implies predestination. To make such accurate predictions, God would have a vested interest to make sure that events happen exactly the way he planned them.

I do not believe that this simplistic approach is Biblical. I do not have enough evidence to support it. However, the alternative is that God is not always onmiscient, meaning that he does not always know what will happen, to the smallest minute detail. For this model, I have a few references in the Bible.

[dpeaches84]

but yakoo..r u saying is that we always react to similar siutations the same way and that our personality doesnt grow or change with time?..if so, i dont think i can agree with u on this claim of predestination..

[yacko]

Ah, my imaginary friend. We grow and learn all the time. This growth pattern is just a change in the state of the machine. As an omniscient being, God can also predict how we will grow, learn, and change our minds. I think that St Joe had the same problem with my agrument.

We are all individual designs. Also, we have the capability to change and grow. However, just like the gardener can predict how his plants will grow, so can God. For God, growth is just as predictable as death.

[dpeaches84]

ahh ok..ur argument stands firm yakoo!..haha ..but it still seems to be just a theory

[dpeaches84]

hmm but yakoo..y would God create us with personailties that he knew would not be acceptant of his salvation?..hmmmm me wonders

[yacko]

I am not ready to answer this question as of now. If this theory is right (which I do not believe it is), it means that God is very cruel. To be presestined for Hell is absolutely cruel.

However, if predestination is not true, it means that God is not always onmiscient, meaning that he cannot absolutely predict everything that will hapen in the Universe, down to the very last atom. He can accurately predict the big things, even whether or not I will end up in heaven or hell. This variant allows for free will. However, the possibility that God is not always omniscient is also scary.

BTW, the bible seems to indicate situtations where God actually regretted some of his actions, or some of man's actios. To me, it looks like God had a few surprises of his own, when man screwed up.

[dpeaches84]

yea i agree with u yakoo..i guess its one of those questions that cant be answered..either way we find faults in theory..i suppose maybe it is something that we as mere humans can not grasp, in reference to Gods being.. but it is interesting to discuss, think about it..

[SaintJoe69]

Let me run a hypothetical example by you. Suppose that we set up two machines to play chess. In this corner... Deep Blue, the meanest AI chess player in the world. Now, this computer is a true Turing machine, in the strictest sense of the word. Every move the machine makes is strictly specified in the programming, and hardwired in its architecture. The IBM designers can predict every move the machine will make for any given situation.

In the opposite corner, we have ... Daisy. Now, Daisy has been taking chess lessons for a while, and has become very proficient. Also, Daisy has an IQ of 200, which means that she has analytical skills beyond poor Deep Blue. Now, this is the $64,000 question: God being Daisy's creator, can he predict every move Daisy will make against Deep Blue, just like the IBM guys can? I submitt to you, that by using the Turing machine model, God can predict not only the moves Daisy makes, but also the timing of her moves, the emotional response when she wins, (or loses), and so forth.

If this model is true (which I believe it is), it means that God can predict exactly what choices we make when we choose our cereal in the morning, or whether or not we choose to accept Christ! We make these choices by design, because of our situation (inputs), lifetime experiences (state of the machine), and our intelligence or character (intrinsic hardware design). To me, it looks like a very strong case for predestination.

Absolute foreknowledge of the future and the choices we make (by absolute I mean the accurate prediction of the state of every atom in this Universe), implies predestination. To make such accurate predictions, God would have a vested interest to make sure that events happen exactly the way he planned them.

I do not believe that this simplistic approach is Biblical. I do not have enough evidence to support it. However, the alternative is that God is not always onmiscient, meaning that he does not always know what will happen, to the smallest minute detail. For this model, I have a few references in the Bible.
I don't agree with this scenario. First of all, we all know that Daisy doesn't have much in her head. ;)

Ok, all joking aside... it's not about God predicting each move we make. God already knows each move we make. We are part of God's story. God has written His book. The ending is already complete and written "in stone". We are nothing but mere words in some chapter of His book. What is our purpose, other than to be letters and words in His book? We are only here to be a part of the story. It doesn't matter which chapter we exist in, or what our story is, but the ending will never change, because it is already written.

We may think that the story changes, depending upon what we do or say in our own chapter, but that is because we are not at God's level to read the whole chapter. We are not aware of the other characters in the book that interact with us, whether knowingly on a daily basis, or unknowingly. God is the only One who can see the big picture.

I'll discuss more later, but that's all I'll say for now. :D

[yacko]

Personally, I do not believe in absolute predestination, which strips God of absolute onmiscience. But I learned to live with it! Still, the implications are scary.

[SaintJoe69]

I am not ready to answer this question as of now. If this theory is right (which I do not believe it is), it means that God is very cruel. To be presestined for Hell is absolutely cruel.

However, if predestination is not true, it means that God is not always onmiscient, meaning that he cannot absolutely predict everything that will hapen in the Universe, down to the very last atom. He can accurately predict the big things, even whether or not I will end up in heaven or hell. This variant allows for free will. However, the possibility that God is not always omniscient is also scary.

BTW, the bible seems to indicate situtations where God actually regretted some of his actions, or some of man's actios. To me, it looks like God had a few surprises of his own, when man screwed up.
Think about Judas when you make this statement.

John 6:70

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

[KrazyEuro]

"our paths are already laid out, from the beinning to the end" this would mean...each one of us has a destiny in the end.

wrongly assumed, for one reason, destiny and destination are completely different things, destiny is something predetermined already, hensing predestination...destination is a place directed to...doesnt mean you get there...each one has a destination in the end. where are you gonna end up, is entirely up to you, not destiny, or their child!

...destiny meaning path, and how that path ends. if our path is already ALL laid out...then God already knows the destiny He chose for us.

Just Cus God knows something, does not mean he chose the place for us...example...you watch a basketball game, and you record it, now you watch the game all over again, you know the outcome right? did you make the outcome that way? no! just cus you know how the game is gonna end, it doesnt mean thats how you designed it...

example: you're in a race, and your destination is alaska, how you get there is entirely up to you, theres a path, and that path is "straight up", how you get there, is the secret, and/or if you're gonna get there!

the mistakes or niches in our path...are the things that build our character..the responses we give to certain situations thrown out at us..that shapes us into the characters we become...

i concur :bfro:

and also influences the path we chose to abide in.

i concur :bfro:

however...all this..niches come to one conclusion..destiny...whatever way we choose..that destiny was already designed for us.


i dont concur! it wasnt designed, it was laid out, we designed destiny. the destination was chosen for all of us by the Blood stained Cross, however, the path that we chose led us to destiny...it wasnt destiny that led us there, it was the path that led us to destiny!

[KrazyEuro]

Think about Judas when you make this statement.

John 6:70

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"


:lol2: your welcome SJ :bfro:

[61leumas]

I am chosen

[yacko]

Think about Judas when you make this statement.

John 6:70

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"


Yes, you can say that Judas was just acting out his nature. He was predestined to go to hell.

[SaintJoe69]

Bibically, there is not enough evidence which supports the fact that Judas was predestined to go to hell. Judas CHOSE to commit suicide. Guilt was tormenting his being. Would God have forgiven Judas of his sins, if he repented? Most definately...Peter denied Christ three times and through repentance, was forgiven. Judas was not predestined to go to hell.
Hmmm... it's interesting that you would compare Judas and Peter. Well, the verse quoted above, John 6:70 (thanks Krazy), has pretty much implicated Judas' destination. I don't think Jesus would casually call one of His disciples a devil. It was obvious that Jesus knew Judas' heart when he was chosen, and Judas was probably also chosen to fulfill the prophecies.

As for Peter's denial of Christ, it was done at a time of fear, and was understandable (in my opinon). It is unlike the betrayal that Judas willingly committed. Judas was not under pressure or fear. He snuck away willingly to make a deal with the pharisees. He made a deal with them for money, showing his greed ("For the love of money is the root of all evil:" 1 Timothy 6:10).

So, you have said that guilt was tormenting Judas, yet do you not think that guilt was tormenting Peter, as well? Yes, Judas chose to commit suicide, but Peter could have chosen the same. My question for you is this:
Are you implying that since Judas chose suicide, that was what delivered him to hell, and not the lack of his repentance? In other words, if Judas had not committed suicide, but chose life without repentance, do you think that he would still make it to Heaven? :scratch:

[yacko]

It is hard to imagine what was going on in Judas' head, but we know that he regretted the fact that he betrayed Christ. He went as far as to confront the pharisses and give the money back. What prevented him from repenting to God?

[SaintJoe69]

It is hard to imagine what was going on in Judas' head, but we know that he regretted the fact that he betrayed Christ. He went as far as to confront the pharisses and give the money back. What prevented him from repenting to God?
Good question. Do you know which verses contain the part about him giving back the money? I forgot.

According to the movie, it was those blasted kids making all of that rickety-racket noise which drove him mad, to the point of committing suicide. I can see how the youth and their noise can drive a person to that point. :rolleyes::sly:

[Tupi]

i dont concur! it wasnt designed, it was laid out, we designed destiny. the destination was chosen for all of us by the Blood stained Cross, however, the path that we chose led us to destiny...it wasnt destiny that led us there, it was the path that led us to destiny!

hmmm.....wasnt the "path that we chose"....the path that God designed for us to chose? our acceptance of the "Blood stained Cross" is the initial starting point of our..."path". however...the path we start walking is a path God designed for us. We walk in that design. i dont think you can walk out of a path that was predesigned for you...you might "think" you walked outside the path...but did you really?...or was that part of the plan?
lots of times we dont know the outcome to certain situations we are put through..however the outcome of those situations is always to our benefit...whether good or bad...the "design/plan" was meant to happen for a reason. i dont think you can come across your own trials..and defeat your own trials....are trials not design elements put into our lives by God?

[Tupi]

Good question. Do you know which verses contain the part about him giving back the money? I forgot.

According to the movie, it was those blasted kids making all of that rickety-racket noise which drove him mad, to the point of committing suicide. I can see how the youth and their noise can drive a person to that point. :rolleyes::sly:



its funny to think of Judas. recently...ive made friends with a guy named Kip at my regular weekly cafe. Kip...approached me looking for opinions on certain issues of the bible. Kip is an extremely knowledgeable and intellectual person...who enjoys reading the bible..and "admiring" Jesus. Kip is also the gay rights activist coordinator here in Knoxville. After a long conversation about the.."apostles"....Kip came to the conclusion that the most admirable apostle was Judas. He said to me that Judas was the only one with the true heart...he was the only one who had enough courage to "stand up to Jesus" and betray him. He said that the other apostles would have been to afraid to....however because of Judas's "honesty" he himself got punished. Judas is an interesting character. i was suprised to hear Kip's opinion on Judas...and at the same time sad. its funnny how characters come across to different people....Jesus is also a character to Kip...a character which he "greatly" admires..however cannot come to the conclusion as being his Savior. Judas again...is a character i think..we will only truly find out about with heavenly knowledge.

[DINGLEBERRY]

no, i think people were given a fair chance to earn their way into the bookof life. it wasnt just handed to them....

[yacko]

no, i think people were given a fair chance to earn their way into the bookof life. it wasnt just handed to them....

Pickles, we cannot earn our salvation. Our best deeds are not good enough to gain a spot in heaven.

[SaintJoe69]

its funny to think of Judas. recently...ive made friends with a guy named Kip at my regular weekly cafe. Kip...approached me looking for opinions on certain issues of the bible. Kip is an extremely knowledgeable and intellectual person...who enjoys reading the bible..and "admiring" Jesus. Kip is also the gay rights activist coordinator here in Knoxville. After a long conversation about the.."apostles"....Kip came to the conclusion that the most admirable apostle was Judas. He said to me that Judas was the only one with the true heart...he was the only one who had enough courage to "stand up to Jesus" and betray him. He said that the other apostles would have been to afraid to....however because of Judas's "honesty" he himself got punished. Judas is an interesting character. i was suprised to hear Kip's opinion on Judas...and at the same time sad. its funnny how characters come across to different people....Jesus is also a character to Kip...a character which he "greatly" admires..however cannot come to the conclusion as being his Savior. Judas again...is a character i think..we will only truly find out about with heavenly knowledge.
Ummm... hopefully, you're helping your newly found friend in seeking the truth, right? :scratch:

[Tupi]

Ummm... hopefully, you're helping your newly found friend in seeking the truth, right? :scratch:

i am..yes.....and to my surprise....last week he asked me to do a study of Luke with him. i couldnt be more priveledged :D

[SaintJoe69]

i am..yes.....and to my surprise....last week he asked me to do a study of Luke with him. i couldnt be more priveledged :D
That's good. It doesn't sound as though he's reading the Bible for the right reasons. :nono:

[Tupi]

That's good. It doesn't sound as though he's reading the Bible for the right reasons. :nono:

well..he's reading the bible in a whole different perspective....i dont think he understands the right or true reasons yet. however....he is one of the most selfless persons i have yet met. now that the semester is over...i can hopefully give my full attention in getting all the research i can on Luke and finishing this study before i leave for Ven. i only pray i can spark more interest in him for the "right reasons"

[KrazyEuro]

Hmmm... it's interesting that you would compare Judas and Peter. Well, the verse quoted above, John 6:70 (thanks Krazy), has pretty much implicated Judas' destination. I don't think Jesus would casually call one of His disciples a devil. It was obvious that Jesus knew Judas' heart when he was chosen, and Judas was probably also chosen to fulfill the prophecies.

As for Peter's denial of Christ, it was done at a time of fear, and was understandable (in my opinon). It is unlike the betrayal that Judas willingly committed. Judas was not under pressure or fear. He snuck away willingly to make a deal with the pharisees. He made a deal with them for money, showing his greed ("For the love of money is the root of all evil:" 1 Timothy 6:10).

So, you have said that guilt was tormenting Judas, yet do you not think that guilt was tormenting Peter, as well? Yes, Judas chose to commit suicide, but Peter could have chosen the same. My question for you is this:
Are you implying that since Judas chose suicide, that was what delivered him to hell, and not the lack of his repentance? In other words, if Judas had not committed suicide, but chose life without repentance, do you think that he would still make it to Heaven? :scratch:

:lol2: SJ, your bold part, is once again flawed!

Matthew 16:23

23. Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."


:bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

:lol2: SJ, your bold part, is once again flawed!

Matthew 16:23

23. Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."


:bfro:
I knew you were going to bring up that verse. I don't think that Jesus was directly talking to Peter in the sense that he was telling Peter that he was evil. I think he was just correcting Peter, but doing it in a rather harsh manner, if anything.

I'll tell people online that they lack intelligence here and there, and they automatically translate that as though I were calling them idiots. If I wanted to do that, I simply would have stated they were idiots. Maybe "idiots" is too kind a word. Maybe it's too harsh? Anyhow, my point is that when Jesus made that comment, it was not in the sense that He was saying that Peter was evil, as is the case with Judas. :D

[KrazyEuro]

hmmm.....wasnt the "path that we chose"....the path that God designed for us to chose?

There is one path that the Lord laid out for us, and thats Jesus Christ, whether we choose to go on his path or not, is entirely up to that individual. God does not force anybody to go straight to hell, nor does he force anybody to Love him!

our acceptance of the "Blood stained Cross" is the initial starting point of our..."path". however...the path we start walking is a path God designed for us.

i gotta disagree, isnt Jesus the one that said that he wishes for "all" to be saved? how can he make such a wish if he's the one sending people to hell?

We walk in that design. i dont think you can walk out of a path that was predesigned for you...

you're correct, you cannot walk out of a design that was predesigned for you, luckily God didnt design our "paths" but rather, he Designed the MAIN path and whosoever decides to fallow it shall be saved

you might "think" you walked outside the path...but did you really?...or was that part of the plan?

in this situation, how does one know they are saved? how do you really know that you are saved? just cus you're good right now, how do you know that God isnt gonna end up sending you to hell?

lots of times we dont know the outcome to certain situations we are put through..however the outcome of those situations is always to our benefit...whether good or bad...

correct, James 1:2-4

the "design/plan" was meant to happen for a reason. i dont think you can come across your own trials..and defeat your own trials....are trials not design elements put into our lives by God?

trials are a whole different ball game now....

you jump into a school, the teachers wishes are for you all to pass, are you all gonna pass?? its a possibility, is the teacher gonna purposely fail people? no, so what does the teacher do then to see who's gonna pass or not?? give tests, (trials) what for? to help you better your knowledge (to build perseverance James 1:2-4), whether or not you pass the test (trial) its beneficial, how? if you fail it, then you know where your weak points are and you can study it more and try harder next time, if you pass it, you build up more knowledge (build up perserverance) and it will help you later on when you get another test (trial)

[Tupi]

so then....was the translation tweeked?

[KrazyEuro]

I knew you were going to bring up that verse. I don't think that Jesus was directly talking to Peter in the sense that he was telling Peter that he was evil. I think he was just correcting Peter, but doing it in a rather harsh manner, if anything.

I'll tell people online that they lack intelligence here and there, and they automatically translate that as though I were calling them idiots. If I wanted to do that, I simply would have stated they were idiots. Maybe "idiots" is too kind a word. Maybe it's too harsh? Anyhow, my point is that when Jesus made that comment, it was not in the sense that He was saying that Peter was evil, as is the case with Judas. :D


:lol2: so then what did he really mean by calling him satan?

[Tupi]

trials are a whole different ball game now....

you jump into a school, the teachers wishes are for you all to pass, are you all gonna pass?? its a possibility, is the teacher gonna purposely fail people? no, so what does the teacher do then to see who's gonna pass or not?? give tests, (trials) what for? to help you better your knowledge (to build perseverance James 1:2-4), whether or not you pass the test (trial) its beneficial, how? if you fail it, then you know where your weak points are and you can study it more and try harder next time, if you pass it, you build up more knowledge (build up perserverance) and it will help you later on when you get another test (trial)

how then would you describe the situation with Job? didnt God already know he would pass the trials? why would God allow satan to mingle with Job..if God didnt already know that Job would overcome that torture?

[SaintJoe69]

:lol2: so then what did he really mean by calling him satan?
You'll have to ask Jesus the next time you talk with Him. I am only responsible for my own actions and words. You can ask me what I mean when I say someone is lacking intelligence. :D

[KrazyEuro]

how then would you describe the situation with Job? didnt God already know he would pass the trials? why would God allow satan to mingle with Job..if God didnt already know that Job would overcome that torture?


just because God knows everything, does not mean thats the way he designed it!

example:

you watch a basketball game, and you see that the lakers win 74-73... and you saw that it was a buzzer beater...and this game is recorded..now you go to your buddies house and you watch it with them, but they never seen the game...and now your buddy says to you

buddy: hey i'll bet you 10 dollars that the lakers are gonna loose

and you say

Tupi: i gurantee that the lakers will win by 1 at the buzzer..

question, did you make the lakers win at the buzzer by 1? or did you just know what was gonna happen?

same way God works, he knows whats gonna happen, it doesnt mean thats the way he designed it

[Tupi]

just because God knows everything, does not mean thats the way he designed it!

example:

you watch a basketball game, and you see that the lakers win 74-73... and you saw that it was a buzzer beater...and this game is recorded..now you go to your buddies house and you watch it with them, but they never seen the game...and now your buddy says to you

buddy: hey i'll bet you 10 dollars that the lakers are gonna loose

and you say

Tupi: i gurantee that the lakers will win by 1 at the buzzer..

question, did you make the lakers win at the buzzer by 1? or did you just know what was gonna happen?

same way God works, he knows whats gonna happen, it doesnt mean thats the way he designed it

Hmm...thats kinda sad....so if in fact Job would not have been able to overcome those trials...would God still have allowed satan to mingle with him? would it not be cruel if God allowed that? (because he did in fact know it would happen..and he did in fact TELL satan he can mess with Job)

[Tupi]

by the way..is that how the lakers won against the spurs last night?

[SaintJoe69]

Hmm...thats kinda sad....so if in fact Job would not have been able to overcome those trials...would God still have allowed satan to mingle with him? would it not be cruel if God allowed that? (because he did in fact know it would happen..and he did in fact TELL satan he can mess with Job)
Remember that God is also known as a jealous God. What we consider to be cruel may not be what God considers to be cruel. We are taking God's judgement and comparing that with our own, which should never be done. :D

[Tupi]

hmmm i dont think Job was wanting to side with Satan in anyway....Job's life was for God...so then..how was God jealous of that?

[SaintJoe69]

hmmm i dont think Job was wanting to side with Satan in anyway....Job's life was for God...so then..how was God jealous of that?
Ahhh... my point of God being a jealous God had nothing to do with the discussion, other than to point out to you that we should not say that God may have been "cruel", based upon our own interpretations or thoughts as to what cruelty actually is. :D

[Tupi]

hmm.. okay. :D

[KrazyEuro]

Hmm...thats kinda sad....so if in fact Job would not have been able to overcome those trials...would God still have allowed satan to mingle with him? would it not be cruel if God allowed that? (because he did in fact know it would happen..and he did in fact TELL satan he can mess with Job)


nothing is sad, its actually a beautiful thing if you think about it, would God still have aloud satan to mingle with Job if he knew Job was not gonna overcome it??

heres a question...

would Job not overcome it because it was too much for him? or because he wouldnt be willing to?

[SaintJoe69]

nothing is sad, its actually a beautiful thing if you think about it, would God still have aloud satan to mingle with Job if he knew Job was not gonna overcome it??

heres a question...

would Job not overcome it because it was too much for him? or because he wouldnt be willing to?
Ahhh... questions for the Oracle to answer...

Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
[Neo turns to look for a vase, and as he does, he knocks over a vase of flowers, which shatters on the floor.]
Oracle: That vase.
Neo: I'm sorry--
Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
Neo: How did you know?
Oracle: Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?

:scratch:

[Tupi]

nothing is sad, its actually a beautiful thing if you think about it, would God still have aloud satan to mingle with Job if he knew Job was not gonna overcome it??

heres a question...

would Job not overcome it because it was too much for him? or because he wouldnt be willing to?


satan is not someone to mess around with. satan...as pathetic he is..still has an astounding power....if Job was in that situation and did not have the power of God within him to overcome it....i dont believe he would have made it through..whether he wanted to or not.

[KrazyEuro]

satan is not someone to mess around with. satan...as pathetic he is..still has an astounding power....if Job was in that situation and did not have the power of God within him to overcome it....i dont believe he would have made it through..whether he wanted to or not.

if he woudlnt have had the power to overcome it, then God wouldnt have placed him among those temptations! what temptations you ask? what was satans' purpose? to have Job Curse in Gods' face right? so to fall away, means to fall into the tempation to fall away..God is not that cruel to place you into a situation knowing there is no way to overcome it...

[Tupi]

then you are saying that God knew Job's future..therefore allowed those "temptations" to happen..no? he wouldnt have let it happen if Job wouldnt be able to handle those temptations.

[KrazyEuro]

then you are saying that God knew Job's future..therefore allowed those "temptations" to happen..no? he wouldnt have let it happen if Job wouldnt be able to handle those temptations.


yes, God would have not let it happen if he knew that Job wouldnt be able to handle the temptations...

heres the difference, he would let it happen if Job Could handle the situation but he chose not to. understand what im saying? God is not cruel to put you in a situation knowing there is no way for you to overcome it! however, if he knows you "can" overcome it yet you choose not to, thats a different story! how do i know that God wouldnt place us in a situation knowing that there is no way for us to overcome it??

1 corinthians 10:13

"no temptation has siezed you but what is common to man, God is faithful and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bare, but when you are tempted, God will provide a way out to stand up under it"

thats a beautiful promise with a passion!

just cus he knows something's gonna happen, whether it be good or bad, does not mean that he forced us to make the right or wrong decision, that was entirely up to us, he'll provide ways for us to make the right decision, because he will not place us in a situation if he knows we dont have enough power and strenght to get through it!

now if God would've taken another new christian, who just started in the faith, and is not solid enough to go through the various types of trials that Job went through, i dont think God would put him through those trials, rather, he would place various trials that are just as tough, but for his level of maturity

[61leumas]

anyone that believe in predestination shuld become a jehovah witness...then they can compete for the 144,000 spots in heaven that are predistined to the best of the christians

[KrazyEuro]

anyone that believe in predestination shuld become a jehovah witness...then they can compete for the 144,000 spots in heaven that are predistined to the best of the christians


:scratch: :need:

[61leumas]

:scratch: :need:

you don't get it?

[Tupi]

krazy....from your corinthians verse....it shows that God already knows what outcome will happen to certain situations..therefore...he already knows your "path chosen"....which is why he saves us from the things we cannot overcome.

[yacko]

just because God knows everything, does not mean thats the way he designed it!

example:

you watch a basketball game, and you see that the lakers win 74-73... and you saw that it was a buzzer beater...and this game is recorded..now you go to your buddies house and you watch it with them, but they never seen the game...and now your buddy says to you

buddy: hey i'll bet you 10 dollars that the lakers are gonna loose

and you say

Tupi: i gurantee that the lakers will win by 1 at the buzzer..

question, did you make the lakers win at the buzzer by 1? or did you just know what was gonna happen?

same way God works, he knows whats gonna happen, it doesnt mean thats the way he designed it

Krazy, are you suggesting that God knows everything, but he CANNOT control everything? He may have the knowledge of the choices we are going to make, but he cannot prevent us from making them?

What do you think about the way God was portrayed in Bruce Almighty? God can do everything except...
affect free will
force people to love him....?

[SaintJoe69]

Krazy, are you suggesting that God knows everything, but he CANNOT control everything? He may have the knowledge of the choices we are going to make, but he cannot prevent us from making them?

What do you think about the way God was portrayed in Bruce Almighty? God can do everything except...
affect free will
force people to love him....?
I personally liked Bruce Almighty. Some people considered the movie to be blasphemous for some odd reason. :scratch:

[yacko]

St Joe,

Do you believe that God is bound to respect our free will and whether or not we choose to love him? In other words, is God somehow restricted in the use of his powers?

[SaintJoe69]

St Joe,

Do you believe that God is bound to respect our free will and whether or not we choose to love him? In other words, is God somehow restricted in the use of his powers?
Hmmm... good question. If God were "restricted" by our free will, that would mean that He is technically not omnipotent. Actually, I just looked up the word "omnipotent", and one of the main definitions it gives is:

2. having virtually unlimited authority or influence.

So, I do still consider God to be omnipotent. :D

I do not think that God is "bound" (as in powerless) by our free will, but I do believe that He let's us choose freely. He may either reward or punish us for our choices, but that does not mean that He has intervened with our choice in making that particular decision. If God wanted to intervene on free will, He would have simply done it with Adam, I would imagine. :D

[yacko]

Let me begin by stating that I believe that free will and absolute predestination are mutually exclusive. So now we have a problem on our hands. If God chooses not to interfere, or he cannot interfere, the exercise of free will strips God of his omniscient capabilities also. Absolute predestination is out. I noticed that you consider God omnipotent even he does not have absolute authority. He may be the most powerful being in the Universe, but without absolute control... is he really omnipotent?

[SaintJoe69]

Let me begin by stating that I believe that free will and absolute predestination are mutually exclusive. So now we have a problem on our hands. If God chooses not to interfere, or he cannot interfere, the exercise of free will strips God of his omniscient capabilities also. Absolute predestination is out. I noticed that you consider God omnipotent even he does not have absolute authority. He may be the most powerful being in the Universe, but without absolute control... is he really omnipotent?
Why does free will exlcude God from being omniscient?

Why do you think that God is not omnipotent without absolute control, when given the definition I posted recently says that omnipotent means "having virtually unlimited authority or influence." Virtually does not mean absolutely, does it? :scratch:

[yacko]

Suppose that God knows exactly what is going to happen from the beginning to the end of times. Let's look at the Universe 100 years from now, year 2104. Today God predicts that the Universe will be in a certain state (Future2104A). If he is onmiscient, it means that he is 100% accurate about his prediction. 10 years from now, he predicts the state of the Universe in 2104. Nothing should have changed. He need not make any corrections to his prediction, because he got it perfect the first time. So, in 2014 he just reprints the old Future2104A and submitts it as the future of the Universe in 2104. He does this every 10 years and nothing changes.

The moral of the story? Absolute onmiscience means that the future is unchangeable. If the future can be changed, then God would have to adjust his predictions every time his report is due. This means that Future2104A was flawed when he predicted it in 2004. No onmiscience.

So omniscience and predestination are mutually inclusive.
Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Therefore, omnisicence and free will are mutually exclusive.

[yacko]

Virtual omnipotence is not the same as absolute onmipotence. If you say that God has control over 99.999% of the activities in the Universe, I would say that God is 0.001% impotent. I understand the dictionary definition. However, I used the word as an absolute (omni = all, not almost all, or virtually all)

[SaintJoe69]

Suppose that God knows exactly what is going to happen from the beginning to the end of times. Let's look at the Universe 100 years from now, year 2104. Today God predicts that the Universe will be in a certain state (Future2104A). If he is onmiscient, it means that he is 100% accurate about his prediction. 10 years from now, he predicts the state of the Universe in 2104. Nothing should have changed. He need not make any corrections to his prediction, because he got it perfect the first time. So, in 2014 he just reprints the old Future2104A and submitts it as the future of the Universe in 2104. He does this every 10 years and nothing changes.

The moral of the story? Absolute onmiscience means that the future is unchangeable. If the future can be changed, then God would have to adjust his predictions every time his report is due. This means that Future2104A was flawed when he predicted it in 2004. No onmiscience.

So omniscience and predestination are mutually inclusive.
Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Therefore, omnisicence and free will are mutually exclusive.
It's not a matter of needing to predict anything. It's as you stated at the beginning of this posting. God already knows the ending, so what does He have to predict?

Our futures can be changed, but God's future is "set in stone". Whatever we choose to do does not affect God's plan for the end. To assume this would mean that we, as humans, can affect the ending of God's story.

Let me give you another example. If I give you a book to read (any book), and you read only the first chapter and the last chapter, does it really matter what happens in the chapters in the middle? You already know the ending. It's like the script of a television soap opera. It doesn't matter how many times the characters in the show get married, get divorced, have sex, or whatever, the ending of the book/show is already set by the director/producer (God in this instance). Does it matter if you change out the characters because one actor refuses to take a cut on his contract? No. The director simply gets another actor to replace the rebel, and the story continues until the end. Our lives are nothing more than the middle chapters of God's book... His story. We would be lucky to even think that we had a chapter dedicated to us, but we probably only exist in one small paragraph of the book.

So, why would you think that God has to predict anything if He is already omniscient, and knows the ending, and obviously the whole book? :scratch:

[yacko]

Hmmm, so you are saying that our end has already been written, no matter how we live our lives?

[SaintJoe69]

Hmmm, so you are saying that our end has already been written, no matter how we live our lives?
Our end does not mean the end of the story, or the book. Remember, I relate our small amount of time on this earth as nothing but a paragraph in a chapter. There may be many more chapters to come before the end of the story. We may be in the last chapter. Who knows? The end of God's story is already written. We are merely paragraphs. Some of us are not even that, but nothing more than a simple sentence. :eek:

I almost used the quote, "we are merely pawns on the chessboard in the game of life", but I realized that even a pawn can capture the King and end the game. :nono:

[yacko]

Let me take another shot at it.

You believe that God's grand plan is already written. However, he did not sweat out the details. So there are a few blanks spaces in the plan. Each of us may choose to participate to work towards his plan, or against his plan. Does this mean that he knows the beginning, the end, but it's up to us humans to fill in the small details?

[SaintJoe69]

Let me take another shot at it.

You believe that God's grand plan is already written. However, he did not sweat out the details. So there are a few blanks spaces in the plan. Each of us may choose to participate to work towards his plan, or against his plan. Does this mean that he knows the beginning, the end, but it's up to us humans to fill in the small details?
In a sense, yes. That sounds a bit vague, but it would cover the basis of predestination in the sense that God already knows the ending. It's not a matter of being predestined because God chose someone, but merely because God already knows the ending, therefore, He knows each person that will make it to the ending, whether it's Heaven or Hell. It also covers the basis of free will. By us having free will, we still make our choices, without God's intervention. This is not to say that God can not intervene, as I have pointed out earlier. God may choose to either reward us or punish us for ANY choices we make. That is HIS intervention, but He will not make a choice for us. :D

Did I leave anything out? :scratch:

[yacko]

We are running a through an annular assertion here. Bringing the onmiscience argument to a small scale (human life), would you say that God is omniscient about our lives? If he can predict how I am going to end my life, he should also be able to predict what I am going to do tommorrow. Following the logic from the previous post, if he is 100% accurate, his prediction wil not change 1 hr from now, or 2 hours from now. So I am predestined to just follow through the motions and fulfill God's prediction. That's predestination on a small scale, which is mutually inclusive with omniscience.

Do not get tripped by the need to predict. I am using prediction as a tool to test my onmiscience/predestination theory here. Whether it is just a thought experiment or a reality, the result is the same. Knowing what the future will be exactly requires predestination!

[SaintJoe69]

We are running a through an annular assertion here. Bringing the onmiscience argument to a small scale (human life), would you say that God is omniscient about our lives? If he can predict how I am going to end my life, he should also be able to predict what I am going to do tommorrow. Following the logic from the previous post, if he is 100% accurate, his prediction wil not change 1 hr from now, or 2 hours from now. So I am predestined to just follow through the motions and fulfill God's prediction. That's predestination on a small scale, which is mutually inclusive with omniscience.

Do not get tripped by the need to predict. I am using prediction as a tool to test my onmiscience/predestination theory here. Whether it is just a thought experiment or a reality, the result is the same. Knowing what the future will be exactly requires predestination!
Is this last part your disclaimer? God does not work like the Oracle from The Matrix. He does not give you predictions of what you will and what you will not do. He simply knows, just like He knows how many hairs on on your head. It's not a matter of prediction which hairs will fall out in 5 minutes or 10 minutes from now. That is not something I personally believe God would "plan", and it's not something that happened due to our own free will. That kind of stuff just happens. Is it predestination for 15 of your hairs to shed in 5 minutes? No. That is not what I consider to be predestination.

Predestination: the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation.

I just looked that up to make sure, because I had always just thought that it simply meant that we have been predetermined for a particular destination or end (aka Heaven or Hell). The definition is actually a little different than what I originally thought it was. This talks about God intervening in the lives of those that have already been destined for salvation. Can God make us choose one way or another? I don't think so, but obviously He can guide us or intervene so that maybe we have no choice but to choose one way or the other.

This scenario reminds me of The Devil's Advocate, with Keanu Reeves. I'm not sure if you watched this movie or not, but it's about satan intervening in the person's life (guiding him), so that the outcome/ending is what has been planned or predestined. The only problem is that free will still had power in the end, and the story did not end like you thought it might have... or did it? :scratch:

Watch that movie if you get a chance (it's rated-R). It's a good movie that deals with predestination, except it's satan that intervenes instead of God. :eek:

So, I am not sure if you had a different knowledge of predestination before, but if the definition that I just placed here was something other than what you thought, does this change your views any? :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

Krazy, are you suggesting that God knows everything, but he CANNOT control everything? He may have the knowledge of the choices we are going to make, but he cannot prevent us from making them?

What do you think about the way God was portrayed in Bruce Almighty? God can do everything except...
affect free will
force people to love him....?

if he wanted to, he can do whatever he wants, but just becaues God knows we're gonna fall, that doesnt mean he's gonna come and keep us from falling! how else are we gonna learn?

how do you teach your kids?? do you baby them every single step of the way until they hit the age of 18? or do you let them learn for themselves?

[SaintJoe69]

if he wanted to, he can do whatever he wants, but just becaues God knows we're gonna fall, that doesnt mean he's gonna come and keep us from falling! how else are we gonna learn?

how do you teach your kids?? do you baby them every single step of the way until they hit the age of 18? or do you let them learn for themselves?
Hmmm... interesting. The if the purpose of letting us fall was so that we would learn on our own, why would God get mad at us when we fall, even if He knew it, as you stated? :scratch:

If you know your kids will do something bad or fall, but you go ahead and let them do it so that they will learn, would it be proper for you to yell at them and kick them out of the house when they do that bad thing or fall? :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

Hmmm... interesting. The if the purpose of letting us fall was so that we would learn on our own, why would God get mad at us when we fall, even if He knew it, as you stated? :scratch:

If you know your kids will do something bad or fall, but you go ahead and let them do it so that they will learn, would it be proper for you to yell at them and kick them out of the house when they do that bad thing or fall? :scratch:


whats better, a controlling parent? or a parent with disciplinary actions?

[SaintJoe69]

whats better, a controlling parent? or a parent with disciplinary actions?
There is nothing wrong with discipline from a parent, but there it depends on what you mean by a "controlling" parent? :scratch:

If you bake some cookies, and you tell your kid not to eat it, but he eats it... do you kick him out of the house, or would that be a bit drastic? :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

There is nothing wrong with discipline from a parent, but there it depends on what you mean by a "controlling" parent? :scratch:

If you bake some cookies, and you tell your kid not to eat it, but he eats it... do you kick him out of the house, or would that be a bit drastic? :scratch:


if you wanna compare examples to that of God, use more realistic issues :lol2:

if you tell your son not to get to kill anyone, and he does, would you tell the cops, or hide the body?

[SaintJoe69]

if you wanna compare examples to that of God, use more realistic issues :lol2:

if you tell your son not to get to kill anyone, and he does, would you tell the cops, or hide the body?
Come on. Why is my example not a realistic one? Would you kick your kid out of the house if he ate some cookies you told him not to or what? :scratch:

*It depends on who my son killed. ;)

[KrazyEuro]

Come on. Why is my example not a realistic one? Would you kick your kid out of the house if he ate some cookies you told him not to or what? :scratch:

no, however, if the cookie had poison in it that would pass on from generatoin to generation and big time mess up the whole house and bring death into the family if he stayed in the house, then yes, i would kick him out :bfro:



*It depends on who my son killed. ;)


:lol2: cute :lol2:

[SaintJoe69]

no, however, if the cookie had poison in it that would pass on from generatoin to generation and big time mess up the whole house and bring death into the family if he stayed in the house, then yes, i would kick him out :bfro:

:lol2: cute :lol2:
Ahhh... but it brought death into the family anyhow, before you even decided to kick him out. Besides, you are a mean parent to bake cookies with poison in them. Who were they for? :scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

Ahhh... but it brought death into the family anyhow, before you even decided to kick him out. Besides, you are a mean parent to bake cookies with poison in them. Who were they for? :scratch:

the same person you were thinking of :bfro:

*It depends on who my son killed.

:lol2:

[SaintJoe69]

the same person you were thinking of :bfro:

:lol2:
So, you would probably bury the body because it was your intention of killing someone, but your son did the job for you... unless you wanted your son to take the blame for you, like a scapegoat, so you set him up for the murder. I knew you were a mean parent. :tom:

[KrazyEuro]

So, you would probably bury the body because it was your intention of killing someone, but your son did the job for you... unless you wanted your son to take the blame for you, like a scapegoat, so you set him up for the murder. I knew you were a mean parent. :tom:


that would be the case, however, for me to be a parent, it requires 4 things..

1. wife
2. kid
3. boss
4. secretary

:bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

that would be the case, however, for me to be a parent, it requires 4 things..

1. wife
2. kid
3. boss
4. secretary

:bfro:
:laf: Why would you require a boss and a secretary in order for you to be a parent? :scratch:

*I'm sure you threw #3 and #4 in there because I was going to ask anyhow. :D

[DINGLEBERRY]

Pickles, we cannot earn our salvation. Our best deeds are not good enough to gain a spot in heaven.

so, would you like to back up that statement wiht bible verses?? :)

[yacko]

so, would you like to back up that statement wiht bible verses?? :)

According to the word of God, we are all sinners. If this is the case, then Isaiah 64:6, applies to all of us: "... we have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth..." So even our best deeds are worthless when it comes to ransoming our sins. Our salvation is not predicated on how good our deeds are. According to Paul, we do not earn our salvation, but it is given to us because we believed. Read Titus ch 3 where is says, "... 3 For we were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, despicable, hating each other. 4 But when the goodness loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy, throught the water of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

No amount of good deeds will ever be enough to pay God for the offer of eternal life! As a saved Christian, I still sin every day. No amount of good deeds can counterbalance that. My only option is to repent every day and ask forgiveness. :need:

[SaintJoe69]

Is this last part your disclaimer? God does not work like the Oracle from The Matrix. He does not give you predictions of what you will and what you will not do. He simply knows, just like He knows how many hairs on on your head. It's not a matter of prediction which hairs will fall out in 5 minutes or 10 minutes from now. That is not something I personally believe God would "plan", and it's not something that happened due to our own free will. That kind of stuff just happens. Is it predestination for 15 of your hairs to shed in 5 minutes? No. That is not what I consider to be predestination.

Predestination: the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation.

I just looked that up to make sure, because I had always just thought that it simply meant that we have been predetermined for a particular destination or end (aka Heaven or Hell). The definition is actually a little different than what I originally thought it was. This talks about God intervening in the lives of those that have already been destined for salvation. Can God make us choose one way or another? I don't think so, but obviously He can guide us or intervene so that maybe we have no choice but to choose one way or the other.

This scenario reminds me of The Devil's Advocate, with Keanu Reeves. I'm not sure if you watched this movie or not, but it's about satan intervening in the person's life (guiding him), so that the outcome/ending is what has been planned or predestined. The only problem is that free will still had power in the end, and the story did not end like you thought it might have... or did it? :scratch:

Watch that movie if you get a chance (it's rated-R). It's a good movie that deals with predestination, except it's satan that intervenes instead of God. :eek:

So, I am not sure if you had a different knowledge of predestination before, but if the definition that I just placed here was something other than what you thought, does this change your views any? :scratch:
#25...
So, yacko, what have you to comment on this last posting of mine? :scratch:

[Tupi]

hmmm i guess Devil's Advocate is next on my life :D ......although...i cant stand Mr. Keanu

[yacko]

Is this last part your disclaimer? God does not work like the Oracle from The Matrix. He does not give you predictions of what you will and what you will not do. He simply knows, just like He knows how many hairs on on your head. It's not a matter of prediction which hairs will fall out in 5 minutes or 10 minutes from now. That is not something I personally believe God would "plan", and it's not something that happened due to our own free will. That kind of stuff just happens. Is it predestination for 15 of your hairs to shed in 5 minutes? No. That is not what I consider to be predestination.

Predestination: the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation.

I just looked that up to make sure, because I had always just thought that it simply meant that we have been predetermined for a particular destination or end (aka Heaven or Hell). The definition is actually a little different than what I originally thought it was. This talks about God intervening in the lives of those that have already been destined for salvation. Can God make us choose one way or another? I don't think so, but obviously He can guide us or intervene so that maybe we have no choice but to choose one way or the other.

This scenario reminds me of The Devil's Advocate, with Keanu Reeves. I'm not sure if you watched this movie or not, but it's about satan intervening in the person's life (guiding him), so that the outcome/ending is what has been planned or predestined. The only problem is that free will still had power in the end, and the story did not end like you thought it might have... or did it? :scratch:

Watch that movie if you get a chance (it's rated-R). It's a good movie that deals with predestination, except it's satan that intervenes instead of God. :eek:

So, I am not sure if you had a different knowledge of predestination before, but if the definition that I just placed here was something other than what you thought, does this change your views any? :scratch:


We do have different definitions of predestination, omnipotence, onmiscience. I am talking absolute terms, while you apply the concepts more candidly. I am a stickler for details, while you seem to concern yourself with the big pictures. There is nothing wrong with our approaches, even though I believe that they both fail to explain adequately the nature of predestination and the way it relates to God's absolute power.

The same thing happens in physics. While some concepts seem obviously simple when they occur on a large scale, the same phnomena become bizarre and unrecongnizable on a small scale. :wall: Maybe i should come up with the Unified Theory of Predestination.... :scratch:

[SOLDOUT]

there is too much madness about this stuff. It is quite simple, you see. IF you read the NEW TESTAMENT writings ( not references to OT stuff) we can clearly see that any and all references are in regard to POSITIVE qualities or poseesions that we receive AFTER we have Christ. The choice is simple. the answer is just as simple.
God knows whos going to chose. God put himself in all of us ( ROM. 1). so, when i choose to follow, God knew that, and He rejoices that I made that decision. When i choose to deny, God knew that too, yet He did not design me to deny Him, He designed you and I to follow Him. But when we don't, we simply are not following what He created us to do. He does not say "you heaven, you hell"....there is no Love there. Even if you were directly chosen to go to heaven, there is no love in that, you simply become a robot.
Love involves a choice. It's like saying your in love with someone, but you're not sure they're going to say yes to you. So you drug them to day yes. EVEN though God has placed Himself in us and around us, He does not manipulate our DECISION.
YES, His Holy SPirit shows us our need for Him.....but we can still deny.
Yes, God can speak softly, or loudly so that we choose Him....but we still have a choice.
LOVE In CHRISt

CA

[SOLDOUT]

We Are Looking Waaaaaayyyy Too Deep In All This.
Simply Put, You Follow Him...yes, He Knew., Hes Happy
When You Say No.....ahhhh...he Still Knew...and Hes Sad....
Love In Christ

Ca

[KrazyEuro]

its good to look too deep in all this, especially if predestination is totally biblical, read John 6:65, and then read the context

John 6:65
65 . And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

unless what?? unless God says who's going to heaven and who doesnt, before you go crazy and say i misinterpreted this verse, read the context...basically it starts off in John 6:9 5 loaves 2 fist is what the boy gave...5000 people were fed and felt good, so they started to seek God...they went looking for him and finally found him...

John 6:26

26. Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

So jesus replied to them by saying, that they werent seeking him for him, but because they were filled... and this is true because Romans

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"(1) THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

so the bible claims that after the fall of mankind, nobody seeks God...but these 5000 people, and Jesus said that they werent seeking him for him, but because of their fill... then later on in the chapter, Jesus gives them the parable,


John 6:35

35 . Jesus said to them, "(1) I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me (2) will never thirst.

but the people didnt understand it or believe it, and they became bitter

John 6:60
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"

So Jesus knew they were trippping and went on to say...

John 6:61-64

61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this (4) cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 " It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

after that, he turned to his 12 disciples and told them this...

John 6:65

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

basically Jesus is saying, the reson why they didnt believe me and fallowed me, was because God didnt Grant them....

so if nobody seeks God, no one understands him, how come we can??? what causes us to want him and seek him?? people say its free will...but do you really know what free will means?? free will means to do something you MOST want to do....

example: you dont want to go to work, but because you know you got bills to pay, you are gonna go to work...you just did what you MOST wanted to do, not what you wanted to do...get it???

so now if the bible says in Romans 3:10 that no one seeks God, our free will is that we MOST not want to seek God, because of the fall of man, its not what we want to do, but its we MOST want not to do...because thats the way the fall of man became... so now something must take place to make us MOST want to seek God, what is it?? thats right, the Holy Spirit must be IN US before we're saved....how so??

1 Corinthians 12
13 . for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

so we see here that the Holy spirit is what baptizes us into the Body of Christ...so we need to Holy spirit IN US to make us MOST WANT to seek God, because thats what draws us to the Cross, its the Holy Spirit not our desires...

Romans 9:16
16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

so he decides whom he wants to have mercy on and whom he doesnt..

Romans 9:18
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

so we know that the only people that can have eternal life are the people that were ordained for eternal life right??? if you say no, then you go against scriptures...

Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

it doesnt say all who heard the message, or all who believed had eternal life, it says all who were "ordained" for eternal life believed...whats this word "ordained" mean??

or·dain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôr-dn)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains

To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained.

the bible is all for predestination,

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

his choosing, Jacob i loved, but esau i hated said the Lord...

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, " JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

so you make the choice of what you wanna believe, the bible speaks for itself :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

its good to look too deep in all this, especially if predestination is totally biblical, read John 6:65, and then read the context

John 6:65
65 . And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

unless what?? unless God says who's going to heaven and who doesnt, before you go crazy and say i misinterpreted this verse, read the context...basically it starts off in John 6:9 5 loaves 2 fist is what the boy gave...5000 people were fed and felt good, so they started to seek God...they went looking for him and finally found him...

John 6:26

26. Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

So jesus replied to them by saying, that they werent seeking him for him, but because they were filled... and this is true because Romans

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"(1) THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

so the bible claims that after the fall of mankind, nobody seeks God...but these 5000 people, and Jesus said that they werent seeking him for him, but because of their fill... then later on in the chapter, Jesus gives them the parable,


John 6:35

35 . Jesus said to them, "(1) I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me (2) will never thirst.

but the people didnt understand it or believe it, and they became bitter

John 6:60
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"

So Jesus knew they were trippping and went on to say...

John 6:61-64

61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this (4) cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 " It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

after that, he turned to his 12 disciples and told them this...

John 6:65

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

basically Jesus is saying, the reson why they didnt believe me and fallowed me, was because God didnt Grant them....

so if nobody seeks God, no one understands him, how come we can??? what causes us to want him and seek him?? people say its free will...but do you really know what free will means?? free will means to do something you MOST want to do....

example: you dont want to go to work, but because you know you got bills to pay, you are gonna go to work...you just did what you MOST wanted to do, not what you wanted to do...get it???

so now if the bible says in Romans 3:10 that no one seeks God, our free will is that we MOST not want to seek God, because of the fall of man, its not what we want to do, but its we MOST want not to do...because thats the way the fall of man became... so now something must take place to make us MOST want to seek God, what is it?? thats right, the Holy Spirit must be IN US before we're saved....how so??

1 Corinthians 12
13 . for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

so we see here that the Holy spirit is what baptizes us into the Body of Christ...so we need to Holy spirit IN US to make us MOST WANT to seek God, because thats what draws us to the Cross, its the Holy Spirit not our desires...

Romans 9:16
16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

so he decides whom he wants to have mercy on and whom he doesnt..

Romans 9:18
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

so we know that the only people that can have eternal life are the people that were ordained for eternal life right??? if you say no, then you go against scriptures...

Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

it doesnt say all who heard the message, or all who believed had eternal life, it says all who were "ordained" for eternal life believed...whats this word "ordained" mean??

or·dain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôr-dn)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains

To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained.

the bible is all for predestination,

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

his choosing, Jacob i loved, but esau i hated said the Lord...

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, " JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

so you make the choice of what you wanna believe, the bible speaks for itself :bfro:
I'll have to disagree with your interpretation of what free will is. Free will simply means "choice". We have a choice. With every action taken, there is a result.

example: you dont want to go to work, but because you know you got bills to pay, you are gonna go to work...you just did what you MOST wanted to do, not what you wanted to do...get it???

It would only seem logical that the person would MOST want to NOT work, rather than work. Your choice of selections for your example is incorrect, in my opinion. Your choice should be that the person either wanted to:

A. not work
B. pay the bills (work)

Since it is a choice due to free will, the individual should make his/her decision wisely based upon the consequences of either choice. Now, in today's society, it does not necessarily take choice B (work) to pay the bills. People can sit at home, on their lazy butts, and get paid unemployment. With this choice of A (not working), they will still manage to pay the bills. So, paying the bills was not really the choice here. It may have been one of the side issues in determining the real choices of either working or not working. Failing to pay the bills is not a choice, either. This is merely a result or consequence of choosing either work or no work.

Free will is all about choices. Predestination is involved in taking away that choice. :D

[KrazyEuro]

I'll have to disagree with your interpretation of what free will is. Free will simply means "choice". We have a choice. With every action taken, there is a result.

example: you dont want to go to work, but because you know you got bills to pay, you are gonna go to work...you just did what you MOST wanted to do, not what you wanted to do...get it???

It would only seem logical that the person would MOST want to NOT work, rather than work. Your choice of selections for you example is incorrect, in my opinion. Your choice should be that the person either wanted to:

A. not work
B. pay the bills (work)

Since it is a choice due to free will, the individual should make his/her decision wisely based upon the consequences of either choice. Now, in today's society, it does not necessarily take choice B (work) to pay the bills. People can sit at home, on their lazy butts, and get paid unemployment. With this choice of A (not working), they will still manage to pay the bills. So, paying the bills was not really the choice here. It may have been one of the side issues in determining the real choices of either working or not working. Failing to pay the bills is not a choice, either. This is merely a result or consequence of choosing either work or no work.

Free will is all about choices. Predestination is involved in taking away that choice. :D


:lol2: WELCOME BACK! but, can you please provide biblical reasonings to why you believe what you believe???

like John 3:16 like other things...or at least..can you please disprove what i said? or at least explain Romans 9 or John 6:65 or Acts 13:48??? in context of course... alot of scriptures were provided about predestination, you simply gave your opinion... so what shall i believe?? :scratch:

*it feels like day 1 of royouth, Krazy Vs SJ :bfro: *

[SaintJoe69]

:lol2: WELCOME BACK! but, can you please provide biblical reasonings to why you believe what you believe???

like John 3:16 like other things...or at least..can you please disprove what i said? or at least explain Romans 9 or John 6:65 or Acts 13:48??? in context of course... alot of scriptures were provided about predestination, you simply gave your opinion... so what shall i believe?? :scratch:

*it feels like day 1 of royouth, Krazy Vs SJ :bfro: *
I've been thinking about this lately, and I'll get back with you regarding the scriptures you requested. I'll have to read through this thread again to make sure I don't contradict what I might have said earlier in posting. :bfro:

*think milk :icecream:

[KrazyEuro]

I've been thinking about this lately, and I'll get back with you regarding the scriptures you requested. I'll have to read through this thread again to make sure I don't contradict what I might have said earlier in posting. :bfro:

*think milk :icecream:


Either God is in control, or He's not.