Paradox anyone?

[zoolander]

What do you tell those people stuck on asking a paradox when it comes to the Bible? I\'ve been asked this question one to many times:

Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe he can do anything? If he can do anything, can he make a rock he can’t lift? If he can make a rock he can’t lift, then how can he do everything if he cant lift that rock?

Anyone want to help me answer the ignorant?

[Silvi]

God has a perfect character, and He won\'t waste His time making rocks. Everything He creates has a useful purpose.

Just as God cannot sin, same thing with the rock

[Bwana Devil]

If God didn\'t waste his time with rocks, then how is the earth here, or any of the other planets or mountains? Are you saying that rocks are unimportant?

Didn\'t God say to build upon rock (remember Gibraltar?) and build not upon sand?

God cannot sin because he created sin and the very concept of sin. What sin has to do with creating rocks is interesting.

I guess God should not have wasted his time creating rocks, which eventually turn into dust, which in turn made Man. ;)

[Dumitru]

I\'ve heard questions like this before

I and other fellow Christians philosophized about this and we concluded this:

This question is similar to \"If God is God then can He create square circle\" or \"If God can do everything, then why can\'t He sin.\"

Those questions aren\'t logic because they contradict themselves since they break the definition of what you’re questioning.

Let me explain. Take the question “Can God create square circle?” A square circle can not exist because by definition a shape can not be both. In this example a shape can only be a square or a circle, thus if the shape is a square then it is not a circle and if the shape is a circle it is not a square.

The same principle applies to your question. God could do everything and if he couldn’t then he wouldn’t be God. To ask if God can create a rock that he can’t lift is not logical.

[Bwana Devil]

Dumitru:

To conclude a question is not logical would mean that people are unwilling to answer it. I have read the same \"square circle\" rebuttals in a variety of forums and publications. Instead of answering a seemingly \"unanswerable\" question they choose to downplay the importance.

I have heard the quickiest response by most bible-thumpers as \"that is a question from the Devil\". Whether it is or not is not the point. They don\'t take time to actually find the verse that covers the answer. (yes, it\'s in there between Genesis and Revelations.)

A paradox does not \"break the definition\" of anything.

par·a·dox ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-dks)
n.
A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: “The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears” (Mary Shelley).
An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
A statement contrary to received opinion.

So therefore the paradox presented while it may contradict, in truth can have a valid deduction.

Oh, and to answer the question of \"square circle\", yes God can create a Square Circle. How? Consider that man can create a square circle in mathematics, and if you take in account more modern sciences of parallel and alternate dimensions then it is even more possible.

:)

[roxy]

God is too great to conform to our silly requests like lifting a simple rock. He isnt going to stoop to a low level to prove to man that he exsists by lifting a rock or knocking a glass over. God wants us to appraoch him through our faith and trust in him. plus God knows if He did lift a simple rock, man would come up with a \"logical\" explanation that denies the exsistence of God and inhances the rules of science.
and back to the faith issue...if we come before Him with faith, we plant ourselfs deeply into Him and we are not easily swayed but if we acknowledge the exsistence of God thru a simple move, we arent planted in God very deeply.

[rrusnac]

hey zoolander....remember when you asked the girl at cascade that question and she said you were from the devil?!? :lol2: :lol2: that was funny..she snapped on you

[Bwana Devil]

roxy:

I do believe you are missing the point. No one is asking God to do it, but simple asking the question of fellow Christians.

Not to mention who are we to judge what God considers \"beneath\" Him? How do you know that it is too \"low\" for Him to stoop? Many times in the bible God used his power through Moses and many others to do simple things that today we would consider \"beneath\" Him. Example would be changing a stick into a snake. A magician nowadays could do the same thing, but God did it through Moses.

Then there were the times God did things directly. The burning bush? Fairly simplistic, but effective. If we were to ask God today to make a bush burn, I am certain that man would consider it \"beneath\" him. Apparently they are the judges of what God is willing to do.

I don\'t believe God is so stuck up that he would consider ANY request by the very people He created \"beneath\" him. We are his children, and if you children ask you do to do something do you consider it beneath you?

Again, it is an opposing argument that doesn\'t answer the paradox. The answer to the paradox is in the bible if you look hard enough. :bsmile:

[zoolander]

People seem to be missing the point of the paradox. The question is just one of many paradoxes. It is just an example. Don\'t take it so literally. I\'m not asking if God would be willing to come down to earth and show us he can lift a big rock, im asking you how to answer any given paradox. I simply put the rock question there to give an example of a paradox so you would have an idea of what I am talking about.rrusnac :laf:Yea, that girl did snap on me!

[rrusnac]

you came to the wrong place zoonlander...romanians are --EDITED--...as you can see they are missing the point and arent intelligent enough to answer thr question...or at least atempt to



---Edited By KrazyEuro---

[cosmin]

this is very interesting zoolander... and welcome Bwana.. what does your member name mean?

anyway, i am very intrigued by this discussion. i will try to research the answer... especially since you gave us the clue that it is somewhere between Genesis and Revelation :sly: ... i\'ve never had this type of discussion before.... but i am curious to find the answer, and i will post it here...

in the meantime.... rrusnac why did you say romanians are very very very stupid? as a matter of fact Romanians are one of the most intelligent nationalities on earth in my opinion.. even asking this question proves that Romanians dont just want to settle for breadcrumbs, they want the whole chuck of bread.... and btw.. please answer the question yourself, if you have an answer.

:wall: :sly:

[rrusnac]

cosmin i said they are stupid people because..well for example this thread...he asked the question about the paradox and roxy goes off about god stooping to our level and about lifting the rock...literally...we werent talking about that..i noticed a lot of times on here in the threads how people would make a pretty lenghty comment being way off subject and getting the wrong idea from the message/question they are responding to

[rrusnac]

Originally posted by cosmin
in the meantime.... rrusnac why did you say romanians are very very very stupid? as a matter of fact Romanians are one of the most intelligent nationalities on earth in my opinion

i respect your opinion how you think they are so smart but from the people ive met and my experiences i think they are pretty stupid...from the people i worked and went to school with to the pastors running the churchs...they dont make very educated decisions

[Bwana Devil]

65stang:

In the bible Moses changed his staff into a snake. If you also remember so did the Pharaohs clerics (where did their \"magic\" or power come from to do so?). They changed two staffs into snakes, which Moses serpent then ate the two snakes.

You are also missing my point. The point is that if God came down today and did what many would consider a simple magicians trick, no one would be impressed. Also no one would ASK God to do a simple trick as such (it\'s beneath him remember?). It was stated that such \"tricks\" are beneath God, yet He has done them before, and even in the case of the staff into a snake even the Egyptians were not impressed. It took additional acts (plague, water into blood, hail from the sky) to force the Pharaoh to set the people free.

:)

[rrusnac]

good point devil boy!:thfro:

[Bwana Devil]

cosmin:

Bwana Devil is the name of the first film ever made in 3D (remember those 3-D Glasses?) in the 50s. I am a movie buff of sorts. :)

Thank you for the welcome.

[cosmin]

i came across an interesting article doin a quick search here on my break-time at work... this article that i found really helped me understand this topic... please read the para-phrase:

.... Agnostics, atheists, and adherents of other religions often disparage the “contradictory” doctrines of the Christian faith as reason to reject it. They imply that a true religion or worldview would be free of such complications.

Christians agree that real contradictions imply real falsehood. A proposition cannot be true and not true at the same time. No worldview should be based on irrationalism. But statements that seem contradictory may not really be. Sometimes an apparent contradiction is merely an illusion of language. In other cases, ideas that seem contradictory on the surface assert a truth that we can’t fully understand given the present state of our knowledge. They represent a mystery that, while not irrational, permits analysis only to a certain point. They underscore the limitations—either temporary or permanent—of human thought. The word that is usually used to refer to such seeming contradictions is paradox.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines paradox as “a seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true.” Regardless of one’s worldview, a number of basic paradoxes exist that no one has yet resolved. Let’s take a look at one of them.

Paradox One: the “anthropic universe.” Scientists have observed that the universe is not only fantastically complex, but that it appears to have been designed specifically to permit the development of life and consciousness, even human self-consciousness—thus “anthropic.” The universe clearly seems to be designed by a Creator, yet no Creator imposes Himself upon us or makes His presence obvious. Just as the paradox of dualism acknowledges that my ability to “will” my arm to reach out and grasp the handle of a coffee cup is mystery, the paradox of the anthropic universe acknowledges that although it seems there must be a Creator, His identity and manner of interacting with the universe are unknown.

All of the so-called “contradictions” of Christian theology are reflections of these and other basic paradoxes of reality with which every thinking person must contend. Every worldview has to deal with the underlying paradoxes (or apparent contradictions) of human experience. Some do better than others.

Atheists, for instance, must live as though their lives and relationships are meaningful, while at the same time maintaining that the universe is a gigantic accident with no ultimate purpose.

Pantheists — including Hindus, New Agers, and neo-pagans—have a worldview that denies any ultimate distinction between good and evil. Still, like everyone else, they are faced with real moral decisions.

Honest, perceptive people don’t expect to find a worldview that contains no paradox or apparent contradiction. Instead, they look for a worldview that is most faithful to the laws of logic while maintaining fidelity to the depth, wonder, and mystery of reality.

At least two and a half millennia have passed since the book of Job was written, but its wisdom still rings true today:


The Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (Job 38:1-4).

ps. rrusnac... ok so every nationality has its bad apples... americans have The Jerry Springer Show ... need i say more! :laf:

pps. Bwana.... very interesting... ive never seen an actual 3D movie.. but id like to one day.. btw are you Romanian? :scratch:

[rrusnac]

oh c\'mon cosmin..jerry springer?? thats all a fake show..enterainment..look at romanian tv...nothing but porn on day and night

[Bwana Devil]

cosmin:

Very good. You have explained that every religion and science has to deal with it\'s own paradoxes. That is very true.

However, several theologists many years ago found a verse in the bible that indeed answers this paradox (thus ending the paradox). It has to do with \"perception\" and the extent of omnipotence. I encourage further research as the answer is within the pages of the Bible. It takes some interpretation, but it is there.

The internet research (which is laughable) on these paradoxes leads to the theory of \"not logical\", which logic is a scientific discipline that religion rarely uses and instead relies on belief and faith. It is odd that alleged theologists (on those websites) immediately go to logic and science to answer and discourage the theological answer to the paradox (and all paradoxes for that matter). Yet, they are quick to downplay the importance of science itself. As many truly studied Christians know that science actually can explain and prove the existence of God. (See also Who Put the Bang into the Big Bang Theory).

Another interesting topic is that God is all things correct? Then God is also nothing. As nothing is the absence of substance, and God is all things. In the beginning there was nothing (except God), and thus God is nothing. Yet God is everything. So that means God is both Everything and Nothing. This paradox too is answered within the pages of scripture.

[rrusnac]

hey devil...do u have the answer??

[cosmin]

on the fact that many ppl do not use Science to prove the Bible correct... i\'m not sure where you are from the US, however, here in the Detroit area on a major Christian radio station there is a radio talk show host who is passionate about explaining Gods mysteries in plain words, based on Scriptural truth. On a regular basis he has scientists, scholars, authors, and PhD\'s who are all Christian and explain alot of what society DOESNT want ppl to hear...

i will try to dig even deeper to find the anser in the ultimate ANSWER BOOK! :worship:

[Adrian]

Reading this disscusion really got me thinking. Some of the comments made were so out there, that I don\'t even know what to reply. I think that we all need to just focus on living for God, and not try to come up with inteligent answers for questions with no point. These questions, in my opinion, were intended to try confuse us and make us waste our time trying to figure them out. Thats exactly what were doing when were trying to figure out the answers to these type of questions, WASTING OUR TIME!!!! Rascumparat-i vremea, caci zilele sint rele. The devil always wants to keep us occupied with something, so we wont have time for God. These questions only cause arguements and frustrations between fellow Christians. In conclusion, lets all move on to more important things :-) God bless us all.

[Bwana Devil]

America and Americans are everybody. America is and always will be the \"Great Melting Pot\". There are Romanians, French (sorry), Irish, English, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, and hundreds of more \"nationalities\" within the borders of America.

Remember that all people imigrated to America including native americans (across the Bering Straight).

The same can be said about Romania itself. Romania didn\'t always exist since the beginning of time, and is a mixture of various cultures that immigrated to that patch of land we call Romania. The very name of the country shows it\'s Italian history (Rome and Greek). The language itself is latin based. So do Romanians that are born in Romanian consider themselves of Italian descent?

So if you are born in America, you ARE American, plain and simple. You cannot change that and your blood is American with Romanian descent. Heritage is important in America whether you are Romanian or Scottish. It makes little difference as what is important is YOU and your life.

Does God care if you are Romanian or American, or both? I think not. He cares you are Christian and saved by the Blood.

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

Of course I know the answer. I am, of course, not going to give it easily as people here need to do something very important... READ THE BIBLE. :)

They claim to be Christian, but very few have actually read the good book from cover to cover, with a few exceptions.

[rrusnac]

good point adrian but we as christians have to have the knowledge to answer these questions when we cross roads with a non-believer...what are we gonna tell them..i dont know the answer??? how are we going to look if we cant defend ourselfs with this knowledge?

[rrusnac]

hey devil...i think it would be better if you posted the location of the answer in the bible...it might take some of us a bit longer to fully read the bible...understand it..and find the answer on our own....thats why we have people like you to give us guidance!

[Bwana Devil]

Adrian:

Simple minded thinking and blind faith is not what God wants. God did not put our very foundation of questioning the world and exploration into us NOT to be used.

The bible itself is the \"Great Debate\" and opens the world up to discussion, and I believe God did it on purpose. That is why there are so many various interpretations of the bible (so many Christian sects) and such debate. It is up to the individual to find their own answers within it\'s pages.

To ingore questions is ignorance itself. How do people learn if they do not ask questions? Are people not allowed to ask questions? Are we believing in such a rigid and unbending Love that questions are shunned when they hit your very soul?

Read the Psalms of David sometime and how many times did David ask questions of God? How many times did David ask \"Why, oh Lord?\". Did God strike him down or shun his questions? Did God tell him that such questions are not worthy of Him?

Did people ask questions of Jesus? Did Jesus say that he is not worthy of any given question, even when it is considered by others as stupid?

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

It could be you want me to narrow it down because yourself you have not read the bible in it\'s entirety. ;)

What you learn in Bible Study is just the beginning and does not end when you leave the group. The bible is there for you 24 hours a day/7 days per week. Rain or shine.

[cosmin]

Bwana... i knew i like you from the beginning for some reason :alig: .... lets not forget our humbleness though :saint1:

i\'m always glad when there is someone who tried hard to understand the Bible and not settle for what he is being spoon fed. Ultimately when we will be called upon by God to be a witness for him... more than likely all we will have is what we stored in our mind from study and passion to always get closer to the Truth. :sly:

[rrusnac]

yes devil...thats right i havent read the whole bible and it does make it easier when u do narrow it down..unfortunatly i dont have day and night 24/7 type of time to just sit and read the bible

[Bwana Devil]

Then you are not taking time like your father told you to read the Bible. Are you saying that you don\'t have time to read God\'s word?

[Bwana Devil]

cosmin:

Thank you.

Yes, I agree. To accept things blindly is not what God wants. He created the bible to educate us and so that we could make decisions on our own.

Many times I have heard the romanian pastors proclaim that TV is a sin. Yet, when TV is used to educate and inform Christians on belief and faith (through even the Ten Comandments movie) then it is not a sin, now is it? It is yet another teaching tool, much like the internet and this message board itself. Sure there are sinful things on the internet, but at the same time there are just as many \"good\" things spidered throughout the web.

Technology is a good thing that will someday allow us to answer and learn more than our forefathers could ever possibly comprehend, including better understanding of God, and his Word.

[Dumitru]

Bwana Devil

I think your missing the point. A paradox is like saying \"little giant.\"

This is not paradox but a paradox question and questions demands an answer. (either with an answer or by stating its not answerable) However this type of question is not logical because it contradicts itself since it breaks the definition of what you’re questioning. ., hence it can not be answered logically.

All questions do not have answers (for example, why are there 9 planets in our solar system) and some are not logical and therefore, do not have answers like the question we\'re discussing. So we don\'t have to have the answers to ALL questions especially the illogical ones.

The Bible does not have ALL the answers because the Bible was intended for us to know God and life holy lives.

Modern sciences created a square circle? I find that impossible. Where do you get that from?

One more thing.. Do you know the philosophies and theories of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aqunias, Descartes, Pascal, Spinoza, Leibeniz, Berkely, Hume, Kant, Russell, Wittgenstein and Heidegger?

If you don\'t, then i wouldn\'t speak with such boldness because frankly i believe you\'re patronizing people.

[Adrian]

Understand God??? I can see that your judgment and thinking is very clouded. We can\'t comprehend and shouldn\'t question God. We need to have faith in Him, and somewhere along the way you seem to have lost that. I think that your name is very fitting (sorry to say). I understand that we should question things and be curious about the Bible, but I was referring to paradoxes in my last post. You seem to have been confused about that one. I¡¯ll pray for you though. You seem like you want to know everything, almost like you want God to justify himself to you. Humble yourself quickly before God will. Have faith in Him!!!

[rrusnac]

devil...i didnt say i dont take time to read the bible...i\'m saying that i dont have as much time as i wish i did to be able to read the entire bible...it would be great to be able to sit around and read the bible not worrying about things but we have jobs and school and bills to pay....get what im saying??

[Bwana Devil]

Dumitru:

A paradox is NOT like saying \"little giant\". That is called an oxymoron (see the definition at dictionary.com if you need to), not a paradox. They are two distinctly different things.

All questions have answers, even if the answer is no, or that we are unable to comprehend the answer. We do not know everything, but that doesn\'t mean there isn\'t an answer to every question. Perhaps we don\'t know the answer now, but someday we just might, or are you saying we are unable to answer questions?

If you are not able to answer the question or solve the paradox which is covered within the bible (as this applies to omnipotence and not 9 planets), then simply state that fact. :)

It does not break the definition in which is put forth.

The bible is more than just the life of Jesus and the tribulations of God. It is also a modern day guide on how to live and worship through lessons of the past. It also DOES answer many scientific questions. It is the ammunition of Theologists.

I have studied philosophy on many levels and in many texts. Sorry that you feel that I am patronizing people. It must be hard to stand on that pedestal for long periods of time. Seeing eye-to-eye on discussions is much more educational than attempts at discouraging open minded topics.

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

I have taken the time, and I have to do the same things you have to do. I am not exactly some rich recluse that is able to do so.

[rrusnac]

devil..different people different lives..different demands...different schedules...

[Bwana Devil]

Adrian:

I am sorry that you feel that open-minded discussion means that I have lost my way and that I am need prayer. That is a typical reaction from most people that feel they are superior to others. I have been discussing and offering my viewpoints on the topic and related posts, and not attempting (as you did in your first post) to discourage such discussion.

The purpose of a discussion board is discussion and this is a Christian based board and thus I thought we dicuss religion. Should we just post threads about \"Do romos gossip too much?\" or \"How to shoot down a guy.\"?

Is there no room for discussion that perhaps people feel a bit uncomfortable about since they are probably insecure in their own belief and faith?

I am very secure in my belief and faith of God. I am not ashamed to admit it either. :)

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

And ALL those have time for God, and God\'s word.

[rrusnac]

devil...like i said two diferent people...everyone has time of course..but one might have more than the other

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

When was the last time you spent time reading the Bible in your busy schedule, outside of any given Bible Study group? Just curious.

[rrusnac]

i try to squeeze time in every night after a 11 hour work day on top of school work and other personal things i need to get done in a small amount of time

[deni]

first of all i don\'t think any question is stupid, there are only people who are not as wise as others and we the wiser need to enlighten them. sorry but don\'t all get on rrusnac\'s case for posting this topic. and second, i agree very much with bwana, i believe that god doesn\'t want us to be stupid people who buy whatever others tell them and i personally don\'t accept to be fed somehing and eat it. we as rational people need to question everything so that we get the wisdom that god intended for us to have and to get closer, to understand him. but i have a qustion for bwana and cosmin, what do u guys do when u read somthn in the bible and u don\'t understand it and u pray about it but u still don\'t get it, like for example our god is a jealous god, but then in Corinthians 13 it says love is not jealous? please, you wiser people out there enlighten me:help::help::help::scratch::scratch::scratch:

[rrusnac]

the wiser people out there are too busy trying to give us a hard time about not reading the bible completely to enlighten us

[Adrian]

Awesome question Dani!!!! Let me get back to you on that if no one answers it before me.

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

That is very good. I am glad to hear it. :)

[Adrian]

I do not feel that I am superior to others. You seem to think like you know it all though. Well, God bless you all.

I too am also very SECURE about my faith!!!

[roxy]

and rrusnac....thank you very much for your enlightment! :thfro: i did get what you were trying to say in the first place! you were asking a rhetorical question and i simply provided my point and solution to a question like that! try reading into what pple are trying to say before you automatically \"assume\"!:thfro:
peace out!

[rrusnac]

adrain...just because someone is smarter than you doesnt mean you have to try and discourage them and bring them down...just learn from them and move on..no need to hate

[Bwana Devil]

deni:

When I don\'t understand something in the bible I ask questions of others. Then from their viewpoint I can form my own thoughts and opinions.

God is a jealous God. Then you state love is not jealous. Both these are out of context, as you much read the material around them. I don\'t believe God is love, and thus jealousy does not apply. Our LOVE of God is what He wants, and in turn he loves us back. God is jealous when YOUR love is not to him, but to some other idol worship.

IMHO. :)

[roxy]

i believe i was answering this post:

by zoolander....\"What do you tell those people stuck on asking a paradox when it comes to the Bible? I\'ve been asked this question one to many times:

Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe he can do anything? If he can do anything, can he make a rock he can’t lift? If he can make a rock he can’t lift, then how can he do everything if he cant lift that rock?

Anyone want to help me answer the ignorant\"

[Adrian]

Rsunac, i sure hope you weren\'t refering to Bwana as being smarter than me. GOD IS LOVE!!!! He loved us even when we were sinners!!! Bwana, I\'ll be praying for you.

[cosmin]

The purpose of a discussion board is discussion and this is a Christian based board and thus I thought we dicuss religion. Should we just post threads about \"Do romos gossip too much?\" or \"How to shoot down a guy.\"?

Bwana.... the above quote should be the MOTTO of ROYOUTH.... i enjoy the SOUP TALK, FUN TALK, whatever you want to call it as much as most people at ROYOUTH... it is one of motives for starting this site... to get romanian-american youth together to discuss whatever their hearts desire... this way we can see what romanian youth from around the USA and the world talk about, think about, etc.

However, when there is a more serious discussion based on Biblical subjects... we cannot RUN AWAY from them or shoot them down... we can have constructive debates.. and i use DEBATES because not all of us have the same opinion... but at the same time instead of putting down someones view .... as in a debate... PROVE your POINT of VIEW! .... this is one aspect of debate.... not arguements. :sly:

so lets get back to the subject first posted and start to use this thread as a model of how open discussions should be. :thfro:

[rrusnac]

adrian you sure seem intimidated by him so i\'m guessing he is smarter than you!

[Adrian]

Well you guessed wrong, lol. Imtimidated?? Believe me its nothing of that sort. I just don\'t have the time to really get into all of this.

[zoolander]

Thank you for reminding people why I started this thread. I have seen a lot of debate, but no answer to my question. Dumitru, not all philosophers have Christian views, so lets not compare them to the Bible or my question.

[Dumitru]

D

\"If you are not able to answer the question or solve the paradox which is covered within the bible (as this applies to omnipotence and not 9 planets), then simply state that fact. \"

You have to be kidding me? THE QUESTION DOES NOT HAVE AN ANSWER!

Like I said before all questions do not have answers and the Bible does not answer all questions because it was not written to do so. You\'re being obstinate and audacious for claiming that you do have the answer and the answer is in the Bible.

I don\'t believe you know those philosophers and their theories since you keep stating your loose claim.


By the way, i\'m still waiting to see that square circle

[Adrian]

Exactly what I mean to say. God bless you dude. I agree 100%.

[Dumitru]

Originally posted by zoolander
Thank you for reminding people why I started this thread. I have seen a lot of debate, but no answer to my question. Dumitru, not all philosophers have Christian views, so lets not compare them to the Bible or my question.


I never said they do. This is more a philosophical question than a religious one. Philosophy provides a critical mind and higher thinking, which allows one to analyze complex issues and problems.

[deni]

wait a minute [quote]I don\'t believe God is love, and thus jealousy does not apply. i do think God is love because he loved us first, before we existed and he invented the meaning of love, without him there wouldn\'t be any love. second, then what do i do, is it ok for me to be jealous in my relationships?:baby::baby:

[Bwana Devil]

Dumitru:

Every question has an answer, even if the answer is wrong or not understood. You speak to me of knowing these things, yet you didn\'t know the difference between an oxymoron and a paradox, care to explain that one?

This particular paradox on omnipotence (on ominpotence) is covered within the bible. Whether you agree or disagree is neither cause for concern.

What is your point about the difference philosophers (which btw have some very contradictary thoughts themselves) in reference to the bible. They do not have all the answers themselves and most of the time simply bring up more questions rather than any answers. Their \"theories\" are not relevant unless you wish to provide succint evidence provided by them (ANY of them) to the discussion.

Also, zoolander is right that many of your philosophers do not have Christian viewpoints, and you are just stating a common statement without any specific references.

You are welcome to enlighten us as to their (and yours) wisdom if you have read them yourself. As for me, I have no need to reference them since the answer to the topic is not being asked of them and the paradox is not set before them.

If you can do it without being rude helps to keep the discussion going. :)

[Bwana Devil]

This was not asked of philosophers, but of Christians in general. Some of the best Theologists have found the answer this paradox. :)

Again, it is a topic for Religion. We can certainly bring other \"great thinkers\" into the discussion, but unless you reference their thoughts on the matter directly, it does little to assist the conversation.

[Adrian]

I want to know how or why for that matter, you would say that you don\'t believe God is not love. Care to explain that one to me???

[rrusnac]

devill....why dont u do us all a favor and answer the original question about the paradox instead having these arguements....if u know the answer..share it and enlighten us

[Bwana Devil]

Adrian:

God is God, and is a subject. Love is a verb in this context. We say \"God\'s Love\", not replace \"God\" with the word \"Love\". It is not an insult or a derogatory comment. It is clarification.

We love God, and God\'s shows His Love for us. You can certainly say He is love since He is all things, but it just helps to clarify in the matter dealing with jealousy. God is a jealous God as the bible states, but it would be because we are showing our love for another God or diety.

The contexts of the references need to be posted here, at least a few scripture before and a few after for better clarification.

I mean we could take the word \"kill\" out of the bible and interpret it means that we should \"kill\" anything.

Proper context is important. :)

[Bwana Devil]

rrusnac:

I am not the original poster of this thread. I will wait and see if others who are willing to debate or discuss the issue in an open-minded way have an inkling on the direction that leads to the answer.

Not selling any phones today? ;)

[Adrian]

I agree that proper context is VERY important.

[Bwana Devil]

Adrian:

Exactly, and that is what I referring to. Your U2U implied that I don\'t believe in God\'s love, which is far from the truth. (I keep getting an error in replying)

:)

[rrusnac]

lol...phones huh??? i sold one...its a slow day what can i say...so who are u??

[SaiNt]

-- Edited by ADMIN

Do NOT make your first post an insulting one or youll be DELETED! not a good way to start my friend :argue: :mad:

[Bwana Devil]

SaiNt:

I can see you are showing intelligence befitting your age and station. That is a lovely Christian attitude. :)

[rrusnac]

lol...man cosmin...this is what i meant when i said romanians are very very stupid...look at this guys\' mentality

[cosmin]

if you read his posts he is tryin to get us to open up SCRIPTURE and to find the answer.. is that so hard? he hasnt asked us to go to the Library of Congress and to look through THOUSANDS of pages of philosophical books! .... lets open up that dusty \'ol Good Book under our Car Magazines, and the latest GQ... and come up with an intelligent, Biblically based answer!

:wall:

ps. Bwana.... i am trying my best to find the answer to the original question! :thfro:

[Dumitru]

Ok i\'m through messing around

I\'m calling your bluff. What’s the answer?

I read the Bible every day and I’m very curious and glad if it’s in there. I don\'t believe you read your Bible frequently because you believe the Bible is a manual to answer all of humanity\'s questions.
Here is why God gave us the Bible; John 21 verse 31 \"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believe you may have life in his name.\"

I feel sorry for you if you still believe the Bible has all the answers because we must have faith in God since we do not know FOR A FACT that He exits. The odds are on our side, as Pascal wrote in The Wager, “when one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life, rather than risk it for infinite gain, as likely to happen as the loss of nothing.”

Soren Kierkegaard’s Lead of Faith is a good read (as well as the Bible) if you rely on reason to maintain your faith.

I\'ve backed up my points about this question being illogical and unanswerable so lets here your support because hitherto you make claims but don\'t back them up, such as \"this question has an answer, its in the Bible,\" \"this question is not illogical\" and a \"square circle does exist.\"

The point of me bring up those philosophers is to prove that you\'re knowledge on issues as this one is inadequate and that you don\'t have a foundation since these philosophers address these types of questions and provide profound knowledge, which would allow you to make intelligent statements.

Like i said before this question is not as religious as philosophic so if you are well-read and familiar with their ideas, as I am, you would have a bases for your argument. (by this i\'m not trying to state how intelligent i am, but just simply that i have a philosophical background)
True some of them aren\'t Christian, but that’s irrelevant since this topic doesn\'t involve spiritually.

I never claimed to be the smartest guy on royouth and have all the answers, if you read the title of my first post it says \"i\'ll give it a try,” yet I believe that I’ve made a reasonable case for my point.

A little off the topic:
Someone said God is not love. 1 John 4: 16 “God is love.”
And yes that was an oxymoron, (my mistake, I was in a rush) nevertheless this is a paradox question rather than just a paradox.

[Bwana Devil]

Cosmin:

Thank you. That is one of my points is to try to get people to read the bible more. :)

[Bwana Devil]

Dumitru:

I am glad that you feel you need to \"call my bluff\". Please keep in mind I am not the thread starter on this topic, and quite frankly I am not done \"messing around\". You want the answer, then find it because at this point we have a difference in opinion. That is allowed.

You have not backed up your posts. You simply state that the paradox is illogical therefore there is no answer. Defining the reasoning behind such statement(s) has been sparse.

You seem to think I made some proclamation that I am smarter than everyone else, which I challenge you to show where I ever stated that. This is just my posting style, and that isn\'t going to change for you, or anybody.

I also never stated the bible has \"all the answers\", but did state for this particular paradox it does in dealing with omnipotence. The paradox has more to do with omnipotence and it\'s implications rather than philosophy, though a good philosophical debate would be great on these forums.

I encourage your opinion on the matter, and certainly am not like others that wish to discourage or disparage comments by others. Each person has a right to their thoughts, beliefs and opinions. They all should be heard. You have made yours clearly and I am certain there are others out there with even further differences.

The keys to any discussion is not to take things personally, open the mind, and remain calm. You have shown some excellent points, and things that should be considered. I have little doubt that you are among some of the best thinkers here.

That doesn\'t mean I agree with your opinion. :)

On a note of logic: Logic dictates that is part of a theory is incorrect then the ENTIRE theory is incorrect. (I don\'t particuarly agree, but was reminded of this today by a someone).

[Dumitru]

Devil you said I don\'t have support for my opinion. Here is what I think about this question and my support.

This type of question is not logical because it contradicts itself by nullifying the definition of what it\'s questioning.

Let me explain.
Take the question ¡°Can God create square circle?¡± A square circle can not exist because by definition a shape can not be both. In this example a shape can only be a square or a circle, thus if the shape is a square then it is not a circle and if the shape is a circle it is not a square.

The same principle applies to our question. God is omnipotent but this question\'s implies by the unliftable rock that he is not. Hence the question is not answerable and illogical.

By attempting in any way to answer it would result in stating God is not God.

[rrusnac]

thats the point of asking the paradox question..to get the christian to admit god is not god...but the answer is in the bible to this question

[Iacob]

when satan came to Jesus ,after the 40 days of fasting, si la ispitit what happened? Satan told him that why doesn\'t he jump off the cliff b/c it is written that the angels would never let him get hurt.
Well i don\'t know the answer to that but there goes your answer to your paradox question. If you can understand that answer then you can answer any of the silly question people put in front of you to hurt your faith in God.

>>Emy

HTH

[deni]

i agree with Dumitru that this is an illogical qustion and the answer to it is, no God cannot create a square circle because it defeats the laws of nature that he set out at the beginning of time, the same with the unliftable rock, if God can do anything, God can lift the rock, what God creates God can undo, hence if he creates a rock that no one else can lift he can lift it. the person who creates somehing is the person with a right to undo it, to break or disassemble it. u guys all think the same but you express it wrong and that\'s why u fight. well, i gave it a try. :bsmile::bsmile::bsmile::cool1::cool1::cool1:

[Dumitru]

Iacob

You have an interesting perspective.

We know why Jesus did not jump: \"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.\"
KJV Matt 4:7

Can you expand on how this relates to the paradox, because it may shed new light on question?

[rrusnac]

Originally posted by deni
i agree with Dumitru that this is an illogical qustion and the answer to it is, no God cannot create a square circle because it defeats the laws of nature that he set out at the beginning of time, the same with the unliftable rock, if God can do anything, God can lift the rock, what God creates God can undo, hence if he creates a rock that no one else can lift he can lift it. the person who creates somehing is the person with a right to undo it, to break or disassemble it. u guys all think the same but you express it wrong and that\'s why u fight. well, i gave it a try. :bsmile::bsmile::bsmile::cool1::cool1::cool1:

you think the laws of nature can stop god?? who do you think created them in the first place?? god can do many things beyond what we can comprehened as human beings...just because you cant comprehened the answer to a paradox doesnt mean there is no answer...in the bible it says that when we die and go to heaven we gain new knowledge and feelings....that here on earth we do not have

[Bwana Devil]

The Laws of Nature were defined by whom? Man.

Science is constantly changing and altering it\'s theories because of new discoveries.

It is sad that this thread dies, and other threads are created here that are just \"fluff\" to the point that Cosmin has to delete content. There have been some very good points in this thread, and in truth that is the point altogether... to get people to discuss and chat.

:)

[rrusnac]

well man created the laws but god created man...thats what i was trying to get at.....

Devil boy....who are u and how do u know me??? :box:

[Bwana Devil]

Man defined the laws by our research. That is the way of many that we have to have things organized and expand. :)

[rrusnac]

ok but who are you :sly:

[Bwana Devil]

Who are you?

[rrusnac]

Remus Rusnac....who are you??? :sly::sly::sly:

[SaintJoe69]

Interesting thread. :D

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by J0NNY05
You people talk about the dumbest things

Too bad you think that anything other than Reliant K and Anberlin are dumb topics. Maybe you should get involved more in the topics, or since you're so bright and these topics are so dumb, maybe you should create a bright topic to discuss? Hmmm...
:scratch:

[KrazyEuro]

or maybe you (saintjoe) should calm yourself down a lil bit and leave the sarcastic tone for other people who need it :scratch:

[jakota]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
or maybe you (saintjoe) should calm yourself down a lil bit and leave the sarcastic tone for other people who need it :scratch:

Which people really need the sarcasm? :somb:

[KrazyEuro]

we need to understand a couple of things first before this question can be answered...

right now, we are overpowerd by the natural, by the perishable, by the mortal, by the dishonorable flesh. in the end, when we are overpowerd by the supernatural, the imperishable, the immortal, the gracious holy spirit, all things will make sense to you! you tend to forget a few things, where Jesus is from, there is no such thing as He cant do it, cus he can do anything...

question....

can we, sit in a flame and not get burnt???

to our natural ways NO! can we see it happen here? NO! why not? cus we're in natural form!

2 Kings 2:9-12?

9. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: [nevertheless], if thou see me [when I am] taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be [so].
11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12. And Elisha saw [it], and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

understand one thing, when we are in heavnly form, things that are not possible in the natural form, can and will be possible in the supernatural form, we cannot sit in a firey chariot and ride on a firey horse. how come elijah did?? he had a supernatural form! so what we think is not possible here and to our natural ways, is totally possible to the God of the unierverse and his Supernatural ways.

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
we need to understand a couple of things first before this question can be answered...

right now, we are overpowerd by the natural, by the perishable, by the mortal, by the dishonorable flesh. in the end, when we are overpowerd by the supernatural, the imperishable, the immortal, the gracious holy spirit, all things will make sense to you! you tend to forget a few things, where Jesus is from, there is no such thing as He cant do it, cus he can do anything...

question....

can we, sit in a flame and not get burnt???

to our natural ways NO! can we see it happen here? NO! why not? cus we're in natural form!

2 Kings 2:9-12?

9. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: [nevertheless], if thou see me [when I am] taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be [so].
11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12. And Elisha saw [it], and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

understand one thing, when we are in heavnly form, things that are not possible in the natural form, can and will be possible in the supernatural form, we cannot sit in a firey chariot and ride on a firey horse. how come elijah did?? he had a supernatural form! so what we think is not possible here and to our natural ways, is totally possible to the God of the unierverse and his Supernatural ways.

Are you asking me or Jakota this question, because I saw it in your discussion about "Jesus can't do this" thread when you were debating with miezu23. I wanted to answer it then, but I limited myself to let him defend his debate on his own grounds. He's been just as active as I have, so I am going to guess that he can defend himself. As for this question... was it meant for me or Jakota?
:D

[KrazyEuro]

which ever has an answer for me :bfro:

[KrazyEuro]

:lol2: and if you use the 3 boys from shadarack meshak and abignagol, it aint gonna work, because, the angel of the Lord was with them, meaning, they were in the supernatural form, protected by the Lord himself :bfro:

[SaintJoe69]

Originally posted by KrazyEuro
:lol2: and if you use the 3 boys from shadarack meshak and abignagol, it aint gonna work, because, the angel of the Lord was with them, meaning, they were in the supernatural form, protected by the Lord himself :bfro:

Whoa... you read my mind. Kind of scary. Well, why can't the Lord protect us now if we have enough faith in Him? Are you telling me that we are beyond His protection now, as those three were in the past?
:scratch:

[vdorin]

Originally posted by SaintJoe69
Interesting thread. :D

it is interesting.......

[KrazyEuro]

no, you're not understanding my theory :lol2: well actually its the bibles theory :lol2:

all im saying is, theres things that we cant understand because as humans, we are limited, but as Supernatural beings in heaven, all things will be made clear!

ex: go to a pregnant women, put your mouth next to her belly, and explain to the lil baby what he/she is to expect when he/she gets out...

is it possible? i doubt it :lol2: thats how we are, to us, something made so hot that we cant even eat, its hard for us to understand how someone can eat it, because we are still in natural form, but when we transform into the supernatural ways, things are made more clear :bfro: its not a matter of "if we can sustain fire now or not" its a matter of "understanding the un-understandable" :lol2: if that made sense :lol2: