what is gonna come first??

[KrazyEuro]

alot of people think that Jesus Christ will come first to take his sheep home, some believe that the anti Christ will come first, scholars debate this issue over and over and still cant come to an agreement...what do you think will happen?? bring scirptural evidence to why you believe the way you believe!!

[kramer]

i think the Anti Christ will come first but he wont say he is until The second coming happens...thats what i think...

[martina]

i think the rapture will occur first but the raputre will occur when the Anti-Christ is revealed because in the bible it says that the end or the rapure will occur in two ways first the rapture then the Anti -Christ will rule, then Jesus will come back to judge the world i'm sorry if i'm wrong but right now i do not have the Bible with me just let me know if i'm wrong

[KrazyEuro]

thats interesting martina, please if you can, bring some scriptural evidence to back up that statement, thats an interesting statement! umm i believe that the anti-christ will come first, do his damage, decieve many, and then Jesus will come in a triumphat return, destroy the anti-christ, take his people home, and destroy 2/3rds' of the nation, and the remaining 1/3 will all look to the skies, they will declare that Jesus is Lord, and the 1000 years of peace will start

[KrazyEuro]

almost sounds like a revelation from God? perhaps it is?

[Nygel]

Originally posted by Martina
......but right now i do not have the Bible with me .....

sure you do there are plenty of bibles online two sites are BibleGateway.com and Crosswalk.com


I personally don't think there is a lot of support for a pretribulation rapture.

[KrazyEuro]

whoever is here at the end times, will go through the tribulation, unless they die before it!! other than that, you either get killed during because of your faith, or you will go through lots of persecution til the return of the Lord,

Luke 21:36

watch therefore and pray that you may be ready for all the things that are going to happen!

[st3lliano]

Originally posted by martina
i think the rapture will occur first but the raputre will occur when the Anti-Christ is revealed because in the bible it says that the end or the rapure will occur in two ways first the rapture then the Anti -Christ will rule, then Jesus will come back to judge the world i'm sorry if i'm wrong but right now i do not have the Bible with me just let me know if i'm wrong

I had a huge debate/argument with my mom about this topic, and here is why. It just is NOT biblical that the rapture will occur. My reason is this, if Jesus were to come before the tribulation, he would be effectively turning his back on humanity, which he claimed he NEVER would do!! There is know biblical evidence that indicates that christians get the "easy" way out by not living through the tribulation!!! If he were to come and take the christians first, and then Judge the World several years later, that would be considered as JESUS' SECOND COMING!! it was be his third!!!

When Jesus comes to judge the earth, he will come with salvation for his followers and judgement for disbelievers! he is not going to separate them before then.....it just is not biblical.

I know Jesus will come again!!! I know that Jesus expects us to follow him thru the BEST of times and the WORST of times, including the tribulation. Whose to say, that the tribulation is not a means of separating the wheat from the chaff??

What scares me more than anything, is that many of today's christians are basing THEOLOGY on a movie made in the 70's called LEFT BEHIND!! many of us have seen it, and if you havent check it out!! I will not claim its a "bad" movie, i just do not think that the movie is based on Biblical TRUTHS!!

The end times are NOT going to be a pretty affair. We should not assume that we might have an "easy" way out of living through the Tribulation. I dont know the exact verse, but I remember a verse which stated something similar to idea that Jesus said that even Christians would partake in the Tribulation, and WE would be blessed to live before those days come!! Why would we be blessed to live BEFORE unless christians actually live DURING the Tribulation.

Bottom line is this. The RAPTURE is not biblical. That word is not even mentioned in the Bible. The concept of meeting Jesus returning like a "thief in the night" does not indicate a QUIET return, but a SUDDEN one...... a return where HE WILL JUDGE EVERY LIVING PERSON!!!

[KrazyEuro]

the rapture WILL HAPPEN!!! I CONCUR WITH STELLIANO!!! people are expecting a SILENT RAPTURE!! if you read the scriptures, its a TRIUMPHANT RETURN!!! THE CLOUDS WILL OPEN, THE TRUMPETS WILL SOUND!! there is no such thing as a SILENT RAPTURE!! when Jesus Comes to take his people home, he's coming strong!!!! with AUTHORITY!!! when will he come?!??? 2 thesalonians 2:8, AFTER THE ANTI-CHRIST is REVEALED!!! meaning tribulations will come, we will get beat by the anti-christ, we will get rocked hard core!! but in verse 8 of 2 thesalonians, Jesus's coming is gonna destroy the anti-Christ. now if you think we're gonna get raptured before the triublations, how many anti-christs are there gonna be??? paul says anti christ comes first then jesus, yet people are saying jesus first then anti-christ. who's wiser??? paul or you?? i think paul is!! sorry to burst your bubble...but i listen to paul, Jesus, Peter, John, over any of you ANY DAY!!!!! Luke 21:36!!!!! READ IT!!!!!

Paul says: dont be scared, we already won the battle!!! how awesome is that??!?!??!?! quit worrying about tribulations, big deal!!!! with God, WE ALREADY WON!!!!!!! but triublations will come first!!!!! it came first in noahs time, it came first in Job's time, it came first in moses's time, it came first in Jesus's time, why wouldnt it come first in our time????

[meesh]

i agree with you stelli.......you made some good points.......

its so sad sometimes though....cause we get caught up in what we were taught instead of searching for ourselves to find to the truth.....

[meesh]

krazy...that is another good point.......God didnt save noah away from the flood....he saved him THRU the flood. meaning...he protected him the whole way thru cause noah followed God's instructions.

Gods instructions for us before his coming....is not to take the mark of the beast......why? cause the plagues will only fall on those who have the mark of the beast!!!!! but the mark is associated with worship......remember? its says that who will not worship the beast or its image (so the antichrist and his sidekick) should be tried first thru no buying and selling, and then finallly death.

so worship is involved......meaning.....satan has a false form of worship set up. and the way satan works....is that he imitates God as much as possible.....and then twists one little aspect of it.

i believe that the antichrist power is the catholic church....not catholic people.....just the church, the power. cause the power "has a man as its head"....who speaks blasphemys against God.

the pope calls himself "God on earth". his titles are Vicarius Fili Dei......which means vicar of the son of God....in otherwords....taking the place of Christ. another title is"Lord God the Pope". lemme give you some quotes from their own books......

[meesh]

Claims Made for the Pope
"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman; finally, thou art another God on earth." (Christopher Marcellus, Oration in the Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, col. 761. Latin.)

"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision. . . . Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." (Augustinus Triumphus, Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Lucius Ferraris, "Papa," art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. 6, p. 26. 1772. Latin.)

"But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, "On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens," dated January 10, 1890, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, New York: Benzinger, 1903, p. 193.)

"We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter "The Reunion of Christendom," dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, p. 304.)



Once he does so (joins the Catholic Church), he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason like a lantern at the door "(Explanation of Catholic Morals, Stapleton, 76; Emphasis added).

"Obey blindly , that is, without asking reasons. Be careful, then, never to examine the directions of your confessor...In a word, keep before your eyes this great rule, that in obeying your confessor you obey God. Force yourself, then, to obey him in spite of all fears. And be persuaded that if you are not obedient to him it will be impossible for you to go on well; but if you obey him you are secure. But you say, if I am ****ed in consequence of obeying my confessor, who will rescue me from hell? What you say is impossible"(Spouse of Christ, 554; Emphasis added).

The priest is a storm: hurricane, cyclone, tornado rolled into one. Like Christ in the temple. Like Christ before the Pharisees. Like Christ hanging on the cross...No, He is more than that. The Priest is not just the cross, he is Christ Himself" (Lone Star Catholic, "Father" Brigante, March 1, 1959).

To the carnal eye, the priest looks like other men, but to the eye of faith, he is exalted above angels" (Faith of our Fathers, Gibbons, 442

"God deigns to make prelates His own equals...If then, you receive a command of one who holds the place of God, you should observe it with the same diligence as if it came from God Himself" (True Spouse of Christ, Liguori, 93).

"Thus priests are gods in power. O power and dignity of the priesthood which surpasses all the powers of heaven and earth, second only to the ineffable dignity of the Mother of God" (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, John Eudes, 177).

"St. Gregory Nazianzen asserts that the priest is a 'God who makes gods'." (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, 13).

[st3lliano]

Uhhh..... Are u suggesting i change my avatar!??

sorry sorry i know this is so dont read this till u read all that banateaca had to say.......

hehe im uber POPE

[meesh]

i dont know stelli.....what do you think? and what do you mean by "im uber pope" ???? or was that some kinda misspelling???

i know those claims sound pretty tough and mean......but they are true.....

luther's 95 thesis was just the beginning of the problems with the papal system.....